Yet another he cracked my aces with crap post

[Nottom]

Paradise 2/4

I raise AA UTG+2, folded around to SB who calls.

Flop: [5c 9h Jc]
check, bet, call

Turn: 3c
Check, bet, call

River: Qd
check, bet, raise /forums/images/icons/confused.gif call

Who wants to guess what he had?

In the middle of this hand I was also dealt AA on the 2nd table I was playing. How many have had that happen?

That one went down
I raise UTG, all fold to BB

flop [some cards that didn't have any noticable draws]
check, bet, call
turn: something
check, bet call
river: something
check bet call

He showed ATo. Almost made up for the first hand.

[KJS]

From the title I would guess he had Q5 or Q9. If he did, I like how he played the hand post-flop.

KJS

[kiddo]

You say you like his postflop-play if he had Q5 or Q9.

Why?

I would think I was ahead (early raiser from ok player=probably overcard higher than J), bet flop (or checkraise) and bet out on turn... call his turnraise (if he didnt 3-bet flop, then i maybe checkfold turn, depends on if I think he would 3-bet overcards) and checkraise again when i got my lucky 2 pair.

If he had 95, thats another thing. Then he is a really bad player who played it ok (but checkraise flop or turn is maybe better, depending on if you think the other player will bet with overcards all the way).

[rigoletto]

Why?

Do you really want to go to war with an UTG raiser out of position with bottom or middle pair? You propose to play it like he was blindstealing from the button.

Any assertive player might play back at you with AK and then you could be forced to lay down the best hand and if he has the goods your agressiveness is just throwing chips away. I'm with KJS on this one.

[kiddo]

"Any assertive player might play back at you with AK"

This hand was online 2/4. In my experience, not many players 3-bet overcards if you checkraise them on flop. But if this was one, I dont think I would "go to war" on flop.

Say you were calling the UTG+2 raiser preflop from the blind with 55 or 99. Headsup on flop and the flop is J high, say 48J. As I understand it you mean this is a hand to only checkcall all the way to showdown?

If the preflopraiser got 2 overcards he will beat you about 50% of the time. But sometimes he will have a big pair. If you are only going to checkcalling him all the way with your pair - not putting pressure on him when you like the flopcards - you better fold all pairs preflop that are lower than his raising standards (say 22-TT). Specially since he will make you pay a bet on river if he got something, and sometimes check if he only got high cards.

[Joe Tall]

He made his two pair with Q5s? I hate to give him too much credit and say QJ...ah, on second thought, he made the gutshot w/KTo...damn, tough one, just remember, 'in the long run'!

[rigoletto]

You are right and I am wrong.


One thing I didn't like in your initial post though, was the bit about checkraising the flop, betting the turn and then call a raise. That's what my war reference was aimed. In that situation I would fold on the turn against most opponents.

[Nottom]

He had Q5o as a few people had guessed, I suppose his post flop play wasn't horrible, but I'm sure he wasn't thinking about it the same way you guys were. And it certainly doesn't change the fact that his preflop call was awful. But then again, I suppose I can count all that EV I had untill the river.

[KJS]

kiddo,

I made 2 assumptions in my post based on the fact that a 2+2er posted this. 1) He has good raising standards, meaning UTG+2 open raises mean big pairs, AK, maybe suited big aces only. 2) That this guy will play aggressively with position post-flop.

That said, if I did accidently call with Q5 and hit the flop I am seeing the river. So, I check, bet or c/r the flop. If I bet, then I may get raised by hands I cannot beat, and very possibly some I can. If he has AA, I am putting $ in as an underdog, which I want to avoid. If he has AK, he is representing AA and getting me to perhaps consider folding a better hand, something I don't want to do.

Checkraising seems very dicey. My checkraise will surely get 3 bet by big pairs, so now I have put in 3SB to find out I am behind, which is a waste. Also, if this guy has any inclination to throw in a 3-bet to represent AA, then I am paying 3SB and then giving up the whole pot! If he folds the turn because I checkraised, I am perhaps giving up profit I could have gained on expensive streets.

Against an aggressive player who uses position well, I think this is a situation where you let him bleed some chips the times when you are ahead, and save some when you are behind (which will be more often if he has good pre-flop standards). Otherwise, you get hammered by good hands and give him a chance to correctly fold when he is beaten. If you think he'll keep betting then I say keep checking. Remember he has position so he has more tricks to employ to get you to make an incorrect fold.

Certainly the river checkraise is a must since he has not slowed down.

KJS