Dumb and dumber or astute, lol

[pufferfish]

$2/$4, 8 handed, new to the table but it "seemed" a little tight.

I'm 2 off the button with 6c 6d.

UTG, UTG+2, and I call. The blinds come along.

Five see the flop; well OK not tight this hand!

FLOP: [ 8s Th 7c ]

Great, fourth pair and a dumb-end gutshot!

Checked to me and I bet. It's folded to UTG who raises and I call.

TURN: [ 8s Th 7c ] [ 2h ]

UTG hesitates then bets. You on a draw UTG? I call.

RIVER: [ 8s Th 7c 2h ] [ Td ]

UTG checks, I bet, he calls.

UTG shows [ Ks 6s ]

I be tired, good night all!

TC,
pf

[RockLobster]

Very astute /forums/images/icons/grin.gif.

I guess that turn-hesitation on his part helped your read quite a bit, then? The turn call sure is questionable, but it sounds like you have a good read and you trusted it. Nicely done.

[JTG51]

UTG hesitates then bets.

You play mostly online, right pufferfish? Was this online? I always wonder how people read these hesitation 'tells' online. How exactly do you differentiate between hesitation and a slow connection or a guy stopping to answer the phone, or whatever?

If this wasn't online, then pretend I'm just talking to myself.

[lil']

Online, a long pause then a bet usually means, "I'm not sure about this." A long pause and a raise often means, "I have the nuts and will use the mysteries of cyberspace to try and confuse you."

When someone's connection really sucks you know and don't read anything into it.

[JTG51]

When someone's connection really sucks you know and don't read anything into it.

I just don't buy that. I don't understand how you can tell the difference between a couple of seconds of lag and an actual hesitation, never mind their phone ringing, or their team's highlights coming on SportsCenter, or a good song coming on the radio, or a kid yelling, or any number of other things.

I think hesitation tells on the internet are just too risky to be reliable. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Nottom]

A hesitation when i'm playing online generally means I'm reading 2+2

[Jeffage]

You should just check-fold on the flop. What are you trying to hit? A 6 gives you your set and someone else a str8. If you hit your str8 someone else prob has a bigger one. Don't bet into 5 people with this hand, and don't ALWAYS try to make a play for the pot. This will prove quite expensive.

Jeff

[Jeffage]

Oh I also missed the flop checkraise. You can fold to this and leave your mistake at only one SB.

Jeff

[RockLobster]

Hmm, I didn't even consider that this might be online. I assumed this was a great read of the person, not of a possible online delay.

SoBeDude started a thread (http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=259601&p age=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) in the HE forum that touches on this. Online delays don't mean much, BUT this thread does bring up some valid points.

[rigoletto]

It wont' rain frogs in Egypt if you check/fold the flop (you've heard of check/folding right?) /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[CrackerZack]

I agree with you JTG. I know when I play online, I tend to read 2+2, talk with friends on IM, get up to get water after a pre-flop fold. Rarely when I'm in a hand, but it happens. I hope people are reading into my delays. The only thing I think that can be read into in the internet are the auto-bet, auto-call things.

[pufferfish]

Thank you for the replies.

I have an “all morning” meeting (yawn) coming up so I’ll make this quick.

On the flop I bet out because it was checked around to me, period. UTG check-raises which gets it head-up. Nice check-raise, but why did he do it?

His hesitation before betting the turn convinced me he was on a draw and I actually think I should have raised here. I’ve read the comments that discount these hesitations. I just detected a break in this particular player’s rhythm and I believed it was valid. I’m not saying it’s valid for all players or any player all the time.

On the river the ten pairs the board. Did he check because of that or because his draw fell through. I decided to follow through and happened to be right.

Perhaps a check-fold on the flop would have been better as I realize, all things considered, that I got lucky here.

TY,
pf

[JTG51]

I agree with most everyone else on the action up to the river, I'm just going to comment on your river play.

There are two possibilities on the river. Your opponent has some kind of pair that beats your 18th pair, or he missed his draw. Either way betting isn't very good for you, unless you really think he would check and fold an 8 or 7 or call you with his busted draw. Neither seems very likely to me.

It turned out that he was curious enough this time to call you with K high, but I think the river value bet is a little too thin. I think the vast majority of the time you are in a spot like this he's going to fold his missed draw or call you with a better hand.

[Louie Landale]

I'm by no means certain but I'd be willing to bet...

You are giving away quite a lot of tells. UTG no doubt saw your hesitation reflecting your "Great, fourth pair and a dumb-end gutshot!" observation, and he decided to take a shot at you for it. He was completely surprised when you called, but he bet out when he picked up the draw.

Then he KNEW you didn't have much when you bet on the end, and paid you off with K-high.

Play with a friend you trust to watch you and let you know about this sort of thing later.

- Louie

[pufferfish]

I think hesitation tells on the internet are just too risky to be reliable. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I prefer to think more along the lines of “rhythm of play”. Some players have little or no rhythm to their play. This may be due to connection problems, playing at multiple tables, posting on 2+2, taking time to think, etc.

However, I believe some players do have a “rhythm of play”, at least much of the time. I believe I am one of those players especially when I’m in the middle of a fast moving hand, which this was.

I sincerely believe that I picked up on a tell and my play from the turn on was entirely based on that. Am I full of it, maybe, but I am being sincere here.

How often do I use this kind of tell? Not often, as I can’t remember the last time that I did.

pf

[pufferfish]

You should just check-fold on the flop. What are you trying to hit? A 6 gives you your set and someone else a str8. If you hit your str8 someone else prob has a bigger one. Don't bet into 5 people with this hand, and don't ALWAYS try to make a play for the pot. This will prove quite expensive.

OK, I guess I should not have bet into 4 players on the flop, even though it was checked to me and I was last to act.

After the flop check-raise by UTG, it was heads-up when the action got back to me. I assume UTG thought his check-raise would get the last remaining player (besides me) out, and it did.

Why did he check-raise? Did he think I would fold after betting out? Something seemed off to me.

It got heads up on the flop and I actually had the best hand, and I ended up with the best hand without improving.

pf

[pufferfish]

There are two possibilities on the river. Your opponent has some kind of pair that beats your 18th pair, or he missed his draw. Either way betting isn't very good for you, unless you really think he would check and fold an 8 or 7 or call you with his busted draw. Neither seems very likely to me.

When he checked on the river I was almost 100% positive that he had nothing. I didn’t think he would let the hand go without a showdown, so I might as well get in another bet.

It turned out that he was curious enough this time to call you with K high, but I think the river value bet is a little too thin. I think the vast majority of the time you are in a spot like this he's going to fold his missed draw or call you with a better hand.

I agree and I am trying to become more discerning about river checks and bets, but not this time. I really felt like I had this guy nailed down.

pf

[pufferfish]

Louie,

I’m not sure if you’re spoofing me or you don’t realize that this hand was played online.

The hand was played online.

pf

[Jeffage]

This board is too draw heavy too bother with against 5 opponents. You played for the set and missed. Not only did you miss, you flopped a hand such that if you hit the str8 u most likely lose and if you hit the set you almost definitely lose. I understand what you're saying (it's checked to me so I bet with position) but with 5 people I would just check...there are too many ways for you to just throw money. You played a drawing hand preflop and missed. Next hand. Also...UTG may have been planning to checkraise anyway to protect a vulnerable hand like a 10. Or he may have a 9 and a pair. Or just a 9-and a kicker. Either way it is best not to get involved. The checkraise isn't that suspect...it's not like it was folded to the guy right next to you who raised bc he thinks ur full of sh*t. Play good and choose ur battles...[censored] pair on a str8 board with 5 opponents is a bad spot imo.

Jeff

[pufferfish]

OK, /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif

Golly gee, I did win!

TY,
pf