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kurto
10-06-2005, 10:49 AM
I'm a long time NLTHE player who's been playing PLO8 and more recently PLO. I've been playing the $25tables at either Party or Poker.

I have noticed that, at the $25 tables, most people limp 99% of the time and, most of the time when someone makes a significant raise PF (especially the donks who buy in short), they have Aces (doesn't matter the other 2 cards, apparently... I've seen AA59 nothing suited, for instance).

This has had the effect of knocking out some of the limpers. I have been experimenting with calling with a variety of hands (preferably with no pairs)... not knowing their relative strength in a matchup (which is bad for me), but calling because I figure the fact that I can strongly put the PFR on Aces gives me a fantastic edge. I have been calling with hands that I might normally fold PF like:
3 6 8 10
6 7 J Q
A 5 6 8 ds

My thoughts being... There's a good chance (going in heads up or 3 to a flop) that a lot of my cards are 'live' (against the guy with Aces).

If I hit 2 pair (or open trips), I check to the shortstack PFR who nearly always makes a pot-sized continuation bet. I put him all in (if there's another player still around, I may slowdown).. he ALWAYS calls, and, so long as the board doesn't pair up (with a card I'm not holding), I take his stack.

I have begun to think the best way for me to make money is for another player to have aces.

This has been working wonderfully for me thus far. I'm just wondering if I've been lucky short term doing this or is this a 'standard' strategy?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Felix_Nietsche
10-06-2005, 11:15 AM
I think you have been playing crap hands and you have been experiencing what doctors call,
"Having 7 Gold Horseshoes Up Your Ass".

I am learning PLO Omaha as well but I've more than double my bankroll at Party in one week. I would NOT play those hands. But....what do I know. Take my comments with a grain of salt. Perhaps some of the more experienced PLO players can comment...

kurto
10-06-2005, 11:22 AM
No one?

Is this real dumb? Standard?

Again... my thoughts are that my cards don't matter too much because I know 50% of his hand AND I know exactly how he will play it. Therefore, I don't need to have a strong hand to play against him if it looks like it would be 2 or 3 handed to the flop. (if there are 4-5 people calling his PFR raise, then I want a really coordinated hand)

I already know his entire stack is going in no matter the flop, where I am only committed to his PFR. Therefore, he's betting his whole stack against my single bet.

Anyone? Is my thinking way off here?

kurto
10-06-2005, 11:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have been playing crap hands and you have been experiencing what doctors call,
"Having 7 Gold Horseshoes Up Your Ass".


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. That's funny. I hope you're wrong, though.

Don't get me wrong, I don't reguarly play 'crap' hands. I am singling out a specific situation; I know what his cards are.

As far as I know, this should be standard poker theory, no? I know his hand and exactly how he's going to play it.

If you were playing NLHE and a deep-stacked rock min re-raised someone and you knew he would only do that with Aces or Kings... you should call with any 2 cards (except AK), because the information you have is worth so much more then your actual cards. You can get away from your hand much easier then they.

The part that I'm not so sure about is the math... If I know the opponent has AAxx (xx being any 2 cards), and I have 4 different cards, what are my odds of hitting 2 pair? And if I hit 2 pair, what are the odds that the card I haven't paired (or the turn card) pair up and counterfeit my 2 pair?

It is so obvious when the players have aces, and they play it so poorly, it seems you have the odds to call with very weak cards. (assuming you're confident of your post flop skills)

jj_frap
10-06-2005, 11:33 AM
In my opinion, you willingness to call should depend on your cards, the size of the raise, your read on your opponent, the number of people to act ahead of you, and the number of people who have acted behind you.

Chances are the call is rarely worth making against low-stakes donks, because it's rare that you'll be the only caller, you're getting crushed in any multi-way situation, and some of these idiots call with some pretty imaginative hands because they love to gamb00l.

Acesover8s
10-06-2005, 11:59 AM
This has been covered many times in the past.

When your opponent 'tells you' he has aces, with a 4 card hand there is very little you can throw away, assuming you will not pick up callers behind you.

I do not generally call these raises with hands including an ace.

With other opponents in I am more selective about the hands I choose to battle with, but these standards are still fairly loose.

This is standard PLO against weak-bad opponents. And many other plays follow from this concept.

Felix_Nietsche
10-06-2005, 12:00 PM
Chances are the call is rarely worth making against low-stakes donks, because it's rare that you'll be the only caller, you're getting crushed in any multi-way situation, and some of these idiots call with some pretty imaginative hands because they love to gamb00l.
************************************************** ****
BINGO! Well Said. The strategy the OP described depends on several requirements coming together.

1. The raiser's XX cards must be JUNK cards that miss the flop. If the XX cards hit the flop, the OP can gets his ass handed to him.

2. The OP must have good position in pre-flop to have a REMOTE chance of getting heads up with the AAxx raiser. Even if the OP re-raises trying to isolate the AAxx raiser then he has to worry about a re-raise from the AAxx player. The odds of getting headsup against the low stakes PLO player is VERY difficult.

3. The OP must avoid multi-handed pots. Having more than two callers is SUICIDE. Two callers is a rather dangerous situation. He might beat the AAxx but he could find himself w/ 2nd best and lose HUGE.


I think if the OP fails to achieve ALL THREE requirements then he is relying on PURE LUCK to make this +EV.

kurto
10-06-2005, 12:14 PM
I agree. As I said, if there are more players, my hand has to be more coordinated.

At one of the tables I was playing at last night, there was very little PF raising. When somone did raise, I found that he sometimes won PF or often went to the flop 2-3 handed. If someone raised in EP and there 4 callers, I'm not calling with junk. But there were several opportunities where I was able to go heads up with my relatively weak hand against the 'known aces.'

I have to say, in general, I'm not looking for an opportunity to gamble with terrible cards. I'm just realizing that this is a specific situation where most of these players seem to grossly misplay their hand (more so then in Texas Hold em)

kurto
10-06-2005, 12:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This has been covered many times in the past.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for retreading old terrain. This is all very exciting and new for me. One, there's a whole new world of strategies and tricks to figure out. And for two, the players seem horrendously terrible... more so then in texas holdem.

[ QUOTE ]
I do not generally call these raises with hands including an ace.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was thinking about that... it stood to reason that a hand with all mid cards might be better, since your potential straight draws are less likely to require his aces. And, again, its a lot easier to fit or fold post flop. Does that sound right?

[ QUOTE ]
This is standard PLO against weak-bad opponents. And many other plays follow from this concept.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to figure those out. I've read basic starting hands and such but nothing about 'tricks'. Its kind of fun figuring it out as I go along, but if there's a FAQ post listing the common ones that would be boring to discuss here is available, it could keep me from posting my 'discoveries' which are boring to the veterans.

beset7
10-06-2005, 03:33 PM
Don't feel bad about posting covered material since our search function is broken and we have no FAQ. But yeah, i'm with acesover8s and i didn't even read the long-ass posts to the contrary. When a guys stats and my observation indicates he rarely raises without AAxx there is a super wide-range of hands i'm calling with because it becomes easy to play near perfectly after the flop.

Big Dave D
10-06-2005, 07:08 PM
Aces,

You havent mentioned your usual I can break aces and make them stand up concept.

dd

10-07-2005, 01:42 PM
Tread carefully if you aren't heads up against the known aces. There are numerous others who play $25 PLO that do the same thing, myself included. You'll learn who they are. While your top two pair or small set may look good against aces, the third player may have you crushed.