Micro LO8 - My first hand post

Well, I've played an orbit and a half, played one hand in LP where I scooped, and this is the very next hand. No reads, no idea how to play. I play holdem of course.

The hand right before this was the first I'd played outside the blinds. Had 6c 4d 3c 2c and board was Qc5h4s 2d Ah.

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Omaha/8 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (6 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls $0.15 (All-In), UTG+1 calls.
<font color="blue"> Things are getting dicey here, but I have a boat and if a 4 drops, I got the low. </font>

River: (15.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players, 1 all-in)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, Hero calls, Button folds, UTG+1 calls.
<font color="blue"> After the cap, I wanted to fold, but I don't have a good reason for it. Would this guy jam a flush like this? </font>

Final Pot: 29.50 BB
<font color="blue"> I did a lot of calling here, and seem to be doing a lot more of it in LO8 than I ever did in LHE. </font>

[As Zehn]

If a 4 drops on the turn A5 would have the nut low, you would have 8432A. In fact, 76, 75 A7, 65 and A6 would beat your hand for the low.

Since you are only playing for the high half of the pot with a weak hand I would fold on the flop after my A2 was counterfeited. I am an O8 noob also so you might want to disregard my advice. If wrong I'm sure someone will correct me.

[Webster]

interesting hand - I'm also a noob but I think I would have folded out of confusion and knowing that every thing I look at I have a non nut against a lot of players.

Yea you have a boat but with those cards SOMEBODY as a 3 and a higher boat. The only time I get excited about 3 of a kind is if its TOP.

So on the turn you need 2 cards for a low and you have a non-nut high.

Very nice hand to post - thanks - waiting for the more experienced guys to chime in.

Note on folding in confusion. So far everytime I get confused and fold knowing that I do not have a nut - I have thanked myself, and everytime I have stuck it out my non-nut hand is a loser.

Thanks, I was thinking that someone would tell me to fold on the turn or definitely on the river. I hadn't even considered folding a set on the flop.

On the flop: at this level, I would not expect most to fold if they have anything playable, so you're not going to bet out anyone with your set of deuces. You're playing for 1/2 the pot at best in all likelihood. And anyone with a flush draw will hang around, even more likely if they also have a low draw. I think it's an easy fold on the flop after the player to your right bets.

I would add that one of the skills that one must acquire when beginning to play LO8 seriously is the ability to lay down hands that look pretty but most likely will wind up costing you money. This hand is one of them.

[dcasper70]

wouldn't surprise me at all if you're up against A38x or A3Jx, also possible at that level to see 4588, 34Jx, 348x etc.
Niss is right, sometimes you just gotta let it go...

[Webster]

niss has that one correct. I had to fold a set last night on the flop and it took all my will power to do it. It goes against everything I know in hold'm. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

After losing 4 or 5 times that way I learned.

[Buzz]

Vincent - Simulation of your hand immediately after the flop shows the best high hand you make by the river:
• 5984 trip deuces
• 150 wheel
• 363 backdoor diamond flush
• 3049 full house
• 443 quads
• 11 straight flush (diamond wheel)

Of these, against six random, non-folding hands, you end up winning high:
• 913/5984 trip deuces
• 18/150 wheel
• 363/363 backdoor diamond flush
• 1346/3049 full house
• 441/443 quads
• 9/11 straight flush (diamond wheel)

After this flop, someone probably has low and may be betting it. Or someone may have low plus something for high and will probably be betting it.

Your flopped trip deuces are probably the best high hand immediately after the flop but for the most part they will need to improve on the turn or river in order for you to have much of a chance of winning for high.

Over half the time (5071/10000), your flopped trip deuces won't improve on the turn or river. But by the time you get to the fourth betting round, the pot size will be so big, even if some of your opponents drop out along the way, that you'll be getting favorable odds to call one more bet, even though your unimproved trip deuces will lose on the river more than six times as often as they'll win.

In other words, if you decide to continue after this flop, you'll be stuck in the pot because of the size of the pot.

Four players have checked by the time the player immediately in front of you bets. If you make it a double bet, some of these players and maybe the Button will probably fold in most casino games. (But I don't know if anyone will fold to a double bet if playing micro-limits - and in some casino games they won't either).

You will improve your chances of winning with unimproved trip deuces (and also the various improved hands you expect to make by the river some of the time) if you manage to reduce the field.

Bottom line: Pump it or dump it.

In other words, I don't think you should call after this flop and betting action. You should either fold or raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Things are getting dicey here, but I have a boat and if a 4 drops, I got the low.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do have a boat but you probably won't have the low if a four drops (although it's not impossible).

[ QUOTE ]
I did a lot of calling here, and seem to be doing a lot more of it in LO8 than I ever did in LHE.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you do end up calling more in Omaha-8 than in Texas hold 'em. The reason is you're usually on a draw and you usually won't have good enough odds to initiate fresh money into the pot - but you often will have good enough odds to call a bet (because of money already in the pot and implied pot odds).

However, I wouldn't be calling after this flop. I'd either be raising or folding, depending on which I thought would work best against the particular group of opponents I was facing. In other words, sometimes I'd raise and other times I'd fold with your particular hand/flop, depending on my opponents - but I wouldn't call.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Ironman]

I also agree with Niss.

But I would have played this hand differently.

In the cutoff with all those people in front of me, I would have raised preflop.

Would it have knocked out the blinds...I don't know, but it would have put the rest of the table on the defensive right away. There is a very good chance that if you raised preflop, that the action would have checked to you...and I would have checked along to get a free look at the turn.

Since you showed no strength, there was a bet in front of you on the flop....I would have folded.

You had good position and good cards and didn't use it.

Dave

[ QUOTE ]
niss has that one correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

You sound surprised. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

The only quibble I would take with your analysis Buzz -- and it is very minor and I do so cautiously -- is that I do not think you can assume that a raise will limit the field at these limits. I have never played at these limits before, so perhaps my thinking is off. But my assumption is that people play these limits to play hands, not to make money. So raising to a dime from a nickel might weed out a hand or two that had no business playing to begin with, but anyone who thinks they have any semblance of a chance at a piece I assume will call. So the raise is more likely throwing money away. Even at $5-$10 online (as opposed to live) it can be hard to limit the field with an early raise (which is not a bad thing in the long run); so I can't see a raise at this micro level having much effect.

And I agree with Ironman about raising pre-flop. I would raised as well.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave - I think with this starting hand you can raise pre-flop or not.

[ QUOTE ]
Would it have knocked out the blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really want to knock out the blinds with this hand?


[ QUOTE ]
...I don't know, but it would have put the rest of the table on the defensive right away. There is a very good chance that if you raised preflop, that the action would have checked to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly why you might not want to raise before the flop with this hand. (You put the rest of the table on the defensive right away).

This is not particularly a great flop for this hand. If you did get a great flop, would you want the rest of the table putting you on the cards you hold and playing accordingly?

The hand is strong enough to raise before the flop, and there are clearly some advantages to playing that way at some tables, maybe including micro tables. But I think when you play the micro limits you're trying to learn how to do well in real games for higher stakes - and I think you generally do better overall by not tapping the fish tank before the flop from the cut-off position with this particular hand.

Overall, you'll make more on the first betting round by raising with a starting hand of this quality. However, there are four betting rounds, not just one.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[DyessMan89]

Preflop- Raise. Great place to build the pot with a premium hand.
Flop- Fine, although this is a borderline call, especially in LO8.
Turn- Easiest.Fold.Ever. This is due to your position, and the fact that you have no low draw and a suspect although semi-strong high hand. Non nut fullhouses are big chip bleeders in LO8.

Thanks for all the replies guys. I didn't really have a clue as to what to raise. Now some of you are saying this is a raising hand. Are my reasons correct?

Pros:
1) A2 suited gives me low &amp; high nut possibilities.
2) It's micro! Everyone sucks! (including me)
3) I'm in the CO (is this a raise in MP? EP?)

Cons:
1) 22 isn't too great on drawy boards even if I hit the set.
2) Q gives me nothing really.

And the pros outweigh the cons I guess.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not think you can assume that a raise will limit the field at these limits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Niss - Very good point.

[ QUOTE ]
I have never played at these limits

[/ QUOTE ]

Me neither.

[ QUOTE ]
But my assumption is that people play these limits to play hands, not to make money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's a reason some people play these limits. I think there are also various other reasons, including making money. I believe some play these limits because they're trying to learn nuances of the game.

If that's the case, it doesn't seem as though making money at these limits is the issue. Rather, learning how to play these hands against typical groups of opponents at higher levels is the issue. And, rightly or wrongly, that's how I try to advise on this forum.

[ QUOTE ]
And I agree with Ironman about raising pre-flop. I would raised as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Niss - I reacted to Dave's post more because of what I saw as the irony in the reason he gave for raising than because I think a pre-flop raise here would be horrid. (The reason Dave gave is one of the prime reasons generally given for not raising before the flop).

In my humble opinion, you can raise before the flop or not in Omaha-8 with any playable hand. And Vincent has a strong starting hand here.

I see raising before the flop or not with Vincent's hand from the cut-off position as more a matter of style than anything else.

I think some styles of play work better when playing some groups of opponents while other styles of play work better when playing other groups. Maybe raising before the flop from the cut-off seat with this hand would be better against this particular group of opponents. Maybe not.

I do like Vincent's leverage with a double bet on the second betting round considerably better without a pre-flop raise. Maybe not at micro limits on the internet, but even in a low limit game in a casino, if you make it a double bet after a bunch of checks, and when there's not already too much in the pot because of action on a previous betting round, it's not at all unusual for one player after another to fold to the double bet until you're one-on-one with the opponent who made the original bet.

Honest.

Buzz

Buzz, I didn't mean to be overly critical of your advice and am sorry if you took it that way. I was merely trying to explain why I would much prefer a fold over a raise in that situation. I completely agree that, in a mid-limit game with a fair number of players who know what they are doing, a raise on the flop could be the better play. (And my comment about the raise pre-flop was made before I saw your post about doing so; I was too lazy to make two separate posts and, again, was not meaning to take issue with your advice.)

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Now some of you are saying this is a raising hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those of us who post here are probably never going to agree on the subject of pre-flop raising.

In my humble opinion, A22Qs is a raising hand - but maybe you do even better with it if you can restrain yourself before the flop. I think it depends on how your opponents will react to your pre-flop raise, and not just on the first betting round.

[ QUOTE ]
Are my reasons correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Vincent - Well... they're not reasons why I would or wouldn't raise before the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
1) A2 suited gives me low &amp; high nut possibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but the hand is mainly a low hand. that is, most of your profit with this hand will come from making the nut low using your ace-deuce. The nut-flush possibility adds about 3% value to the pre-flop value of your hand in a full game and you'll win with a full house or quads almost as much as you'll win with the nut flush. But most of the chips you'll be awarded at the showdown will be because you'll have the nut low.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Q gives me nothing really.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong. Q gives you a nice high card to go with your ace. Look at it this way: Would you rather have a nine in place of the queen? (I'd rather have the queen).

Buzz

[benwood]

Bottom sets are probably the biggest trap hands ib omaha. On this particular hand, your hand may very well be best on the flop, but not necessarily. If it is good now, the chance of someone else ending up with a winning straight, back-door flush, or higher full house are very high, &amp; you can probably only get 1/2 if you win. Let it go.

[gergery]

I'd have flat called preflop. This hand plays better with lots of people in imho since often you will win low, but your chance of winning high are not as good. Your hand rates to be better than most here are raising is ok, but I personally don't think this hand has enough combined scoop potential AND bet-ability to raise preflop.

I would fold on the flop. you are getting half the pot at best, are not likely to win without filling up, and if you do fill up it will scare away everyone with a worse hand so you have reverse implied odds.

-g

[wiseheart]

Im sorry, but you guys should sit down at this
table on Stars to get a better idea of things.
This is the .5/.10 game!
Ive played this game a lot, it only takes
a couple rotations to make a dollar or two.

Almost every hand is capped preflop with 6-7
players seeing a flop. People have no idea what
they are doing. Thus you should be pumping more
marginal hands like this one.

Otherwise sit back and wait for the nuts, you will
make a profit either way.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz, I didn't mean to be overly critical of your advice and am sorry if you took it that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Niss - No, I didn't take it that way. I’m fine with what you wrote. I appreciate reading your point of view. Thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
I was merely trying to explain why I would much prefer a fold over a raise in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding to a bet on the second betting round makes very good sense to me. It’s certainly a safer way to play the hand/flop than raising.

Sometimes I’ll turn a loser into a winner by raising, and this is one of the places (after four checks and then a bet) where I might sense the tactic will work for me. But, as I think about it more, it’s not for everyone, especially beginners. To successfully make isolation raises in Omaha-8, I think you have to accurately sense when your opponents will all fold to the double bet.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Ironman]

Buzz,

I agree that I don't want to knock out the blinds...that is the one big reason I might not raise here...maybe.

I play at the 3/6 tables at Ultimate Bet and find that if I have 3 or 4 people limp in ahead of me I'm better off not being passive with a good preflop hand, especially when I have position. People just don't seem to mind putting in that 2nd bet when they have already put in one.

I guess the key for my thinking here is that this flop was bad for my cards. I'm fine with laying it down right here. If I want to get to the turn, I need to get there with a free card.

One way to do that is by having the action checked around to me...and the only chance I see of that happening is to raise preflop.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Dave

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
I play at the 3/6 tables at Ultimate Bet and find that if I have 3 or 4 people limp in ahead of me I'm better off not being passive with a good preflop hand, especially when I have position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Dave- A lot of very fine players agree with you.

[ QUOTE ]
People just don't seem to mind putting in that 2nd bet when they have already put in one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they'll put in the second bet. And some of them might be idiots who will be pot-committed because they have put in that second bet. But from other more discerning opponents, when you start with A2XY, and when the flop is favorable for you, you'll get less on the second, third, and fourth betting rounds when you raise on the first betting round.

The hand/flop that started this thread is not a good hand/flop to use as an example because the flop is a poor flop for this hand.

But let's take that same hand and give it a more favorable flop. Let's make the flop
4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero has flopped the nut low with the nut diamond draw. Now let's think about what to do from the perspective of an opponent who has been dealt
A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif in a mid-position seat. Think it through from the standpoint of no pre-flop raise from Hero, and then think it through from the standpoint of a pre-flop raise from Hero.

Holding A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif in a mid-position seat, I might either limp or I might raise on the first betting round, depending. Let's say I just limp. And then I'm going to call a raise from Hero. But I'm going to play this hand/flop completely differently on succeeding betting rounds after the pre-flop raise than when there is no pre-flop raise. Specifically, with the pre-flop raise, I'm probably going to check and then fold to a bet after this flop. Without the pre-flop raise, I'm probably going to bet this flop.

So somebody who raises pre-flop probably gets nothing else out of me but those first two bets, when the flop is favorable to him/her. Without the pre-flop raise he/she would probably collect more from me. After this flop, my nice starting hand turns into a marginal continuing hand - and the pre-flop raise tips the scales toward folding to a bet.

And when the flop is favorable to me, say
2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, then I actually might make more than otherwise because of the pre-flop raise.

So, yes, you do get that one extra small bet out of me on the first betting round with your pre-flop raise, but overall your profit is less.

I've just chosen one situation. There are many others, some working in favor of a pre-flop raise and some working against it - but overall, you simply won't necessarily get more out of me with the pre-flop raise. Indeed, you'll probably get less.

Here's the thing: I'm certainly not unique in trying to put my opponents on cards. I suppose it could be that you have a collection of idiots as opponents at some particular time. But otherwise, don't you think some of your 3/6 opponents are trying to put you on cards? Don't you think the way you play on the first betting round influences the way they play the rest of the hand? And other hands in the future?

In my humble opinion, you can raise or not with this starting hand from the cut-off position. Whether I would or wouldn't would depend on my perception of my opponents.

[ QUOTE ]
I guess the key for my thinking here is that this flop was bad for my cards. I'm fine with laying it down right here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Not a bad way to think.

[ QUOTE ]
If I want to get to the turn, I need to get there with a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very reasonable approach.

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for your thoughts

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. Thanks for yours.

Buzz

[Ironman]

Buzz,

In the end I'll bet it doesn't matter too much one way or the other if we raise this hand preflop or just call. Unless something dramatic happens, it shouldn't be a "scoop" hand...but a hand that is going to be profitable when we split that pot.

I think there was one point I was not clear on when I suggested raising...If I felt that the players on the button and in the blinds were more likely to fold than call a double bet, then I would have just called. I really want them in if I can help it.

If their tendencies show me that they are likely to call, but in fact they folded to my raise anyway, well, so be it. I'll play my A 2 in a 4 or 5 way pot for the double bet.


Now, in the example you used that has three favorable low cards that make my A 2 good against your A 3...I understand you would be less likely to continue to the turn without a VERY favorable flop. I would too (although I might be tempted to see one more).

But the thing I'm trying to come to grips with (and it's an effort let me tell you) is the situation you spelled out:

Is it better to get those extra bets from the previous callers rather than 1 extra bet before the turn from the A 3 opponent.

I'm sure there must be a statistical answer to this question...is it 3 opponents, is it 4 opponents, that make it more profitable to get that extra bet preflop.

Here's how I see it.

I essentially got your flop bet early and left you with the temptation to but in that bet that gets you to the turn. Is it likely you put it in? I probably shouldn't say "you" specifically because I think the answer quite clearly is that you (and I) would be unlikely to continue on.

But...for the average chasers (I don't think they need to be idiots) I think many of them will make this mistake.


Your other point: Don't I think my opponents are trying to put me on hands when I play 3/6.

Absolutely. There are probably 4 or 5 different players that I will play against during the week that I think of as strong, thinking players. I stay away from them as much as I can.

The others, well, when I play online, I don't think they really are paying that close attention. Maybe half the table.

When I play live, that's another story. I can see very quickly who is paying attention.

All the best,

Dave

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
In the end I'll bet it doesn't matter too much one way or the other if we raise this hand preflop or just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave - I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand you would be less likely to continue to the turn without a VERY favorable flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might, rightly or wrongly, play differently from you here. I don't necessarily need a deuce on the flop to continue with
A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. There really are lots of possibilities, including, rightly or wrongly, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, where I might continue. But the point I was trying to make is that after a pre-flop raise, I'd be alerted to the dangers of continuing with my A34Kd hand, and I'd probably check and then fold to a bet. I'm aware that I'm going to give away some half-pots and even whole pots playing like that, but whatever.

[ QUOTE ]
Is it better to get those extra bets from the previous callers rather than 1 extra bet before the turn from the A 3 opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I think it depends on how your opponents play.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure there must be a statistical answer to this question...is it 3 opponents, is it 4 opponents, that make it more profitable to get that extra bet preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know the answer. I think it's highly opponent dependent. It's similar to sitting in the second seat and holding the nut high when somebody in the first seat you suspect has the nut low bets the river and there are two player yet to act behind you. Do you raise or do you smooth call, hoping to lure the other two players into the action?

I think it depends on the players involved.

[ QUOTE ]
But...for the average chasers (I don't think they need to be idiots) I think many of them will make this mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree.

[ QUOTE ]
There are probably 4 or 5 different players that I will play against during the week that I think of as strong, thinking players. I stay away from them as much as I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

The last session I played, I looked around the table at one point and could only spot one weak player. The other seven opponents seemed to know the game well and several of them were what I would consider tough opponents for me.

And like the roshambo game (rock scissors, paper), some players who don't seem particularly good can be difficult opponents for me. They're prey for some opponents who are prey for me, but I'm prey for them.

Regards,

Buzz