Royal draw on flop, 10/20NL

[Slimmah]

Advise on all streets appreciated.

No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed)

CO ($1018)
Button ($1970)
Hero ($1980)
BB ($1037)
UTG ($1416)
MP1 ($2000)
MP2 ($446.40)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. Hero posts a blind of $10.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $60</font>, MP1 calls $60, MP2 calls $60, CO calls $60, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero (poster) calls $50, BB calls $40.

Flop: ($360) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>

Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $300</font>, Hero calls $300, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds.

Turn: ($960) A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $500</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1000</font>, CO calls $158 (All-In).

River: ($2618) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $2618

[FoxwoodsFiend]

So some guy raises to 6 times the big blind under the gun. In a 6-way pot on a paired board, he doesn't slow down at all. Then he bets on this paired board, gets called, and still bets out on the turn, essentially all-in. This is almost always AA or KK, most likely KK. I would personally fold the flop-if you hit your flush the only way you can get the rest of your stack in is if villain is full or has the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif
Between the difficulty of making up for your pot odds on the turn and the very real probability that most of your outs aren't clean, I think folding to this near-pot-sized bet is pretty easy.

[Slimmah]

[ QUOTE ]
So some guy raises to 6 times the big blind under the gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, it's 3 times the blind - standard opener.

[ QUOTE ]
In a 6-way pot on a paired board, he doesn't slow down at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, UTG initally raised, and the CO (who had the button here) potted it.

It is extremely unlikely that anyone has AA or KK here. It is very likely that CO has a J, however, and JJ is a small possibility.

If he does, I'm about a 2:1 dog on the flop, and a 3:2 dog on the turn. His stack size is crucial, though. I am certain this player would give plenty of action with just trips on the turn.

If a fold on this flop is correct, then I don't see how it's possible for the pre-flop call to be correct.

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So some guy raises to 6 times the big blind under the gun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, it's 3 times the blind - standard opener.

[ QUOTE ]
In a 6-way pot on a paired board, he doesn't slow down at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wrong, UTG initally raised, and the CO (who had the button here) potted it.

It is extremely unlikely that anyone has AA or KK here. It is very likely that CO has a J, however, and JJ is a small possibility.

If he does, I'm about a 2:1 dog on the flop, and a 3:2 dog on the turn. His stack size is crucial, though. I am certain this player would give plenty of action with just trips on the turn.

If a fold on this flop is correct, then I don't see how it's possible for the pre-flop call to be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

I apologize for my sloppiness in my first post...I suppose I shouldn't post before I've had my coffee. I actually like your call on the flop. Villain's bet on the flop could be AK or it could be a jack. I think that it's safe to say he would call w/TJ-AJ preflop and play each of them very similarly, so you're ahead of most of his range on the turn. If you factor in the possibility that villain would play a looser range of Jx or that he would overplay AK and KQ, then the play gets better.

You would have to put him on AJ or KJs. He was correct in only calling before the flop with only those cards. He was getting at least 3-1 on his money before the flop possibly/likely even 4-1 or 5-1 with the bb, button and sb still to call. He either flopped the underfull or just the three of a kind with the A. You have to bet the unbderfull on the flop. He only bet half the pot on the turn hoping to induce a CR or a call with someone drawing at the flush. you should have folded the flop, never draw at straight or flush where there is a possible full house out there. Especially a quality one like that. all you have were 2 live outs. the 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gifand the k /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[captZEEbo1]

just c/r flop allin or c/f....since it was last to act guy betting, I'd just throw in the rest of my chips

[Yeti]

[ QUOTE ]
just c/r flop allin or c/f....since it was last to act guy betting, I'd just throw in the rest of my chips

[/ QUOTE ]

[Maulik]

[ QUOTE ]
just c/r flop allin or c/f....since it was last to act guy betting, I'd just throw in the rest of my chips

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, i'd probably toss it here and look for a better spot, straight/flush against a paired board isn't fun.

[Big_Jim]

What you are saying, and what Zeebo are saying are very different.

[illegit]

The difference between throwing your hand in and throwing your chips in is something you should pay close attnetion to in poker. If you do one when you meant to do the other you're gonna get in a ton of trouble.

[ QUOTE ]
You would have to put him on AJ or KJs. He was correct in only calling before the flop with only those cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. He is the 4th person into the pot with 3 people still to act behind him. His PF calling range which would also bet $300 on the flop when checked around to is much larger than those two hands.

Flopping the 2nd nuts here with KJ in a multi way pot doesn't bet $300 in that spot when checked around to. AJ would, which I consider to be the only hand that is beating hero on the turn. I think it is equally at likely he holds QJ or JT in that spot. Look at his stack size, if he thinks he's ahead with trips on the turn he's getting it AI. Hell even if he hit his AJ on the turn there, he only has $600 left and the pot is $1000. Pretty easy milk for $300 turn and AI on river considering his stack. I like your PF and turn play, I'm not sure about the flop call. If he has AJ QJ or JT you're between 40-45% to win, but given his stack size I don't think it's worth it.

[Double Down]

We can eliminate some possibilities by thinking about what the utg preflop raiser had. On a flop of KJJ, would the preflop raiser bet out with AK or AA? Probably, just to see where he stood. If he did check, he probably wouldn't fold to a $300 bet on the flop. But he did fold, so I think he could of very well had 10,10 or QQ. This reduces the chances of the villain having J10 and even less with Qj since you have a queen. And with the ace on the turn, he's just hoping that you have the case jack, hopefully kj. And if you are on a draw, he doesn't want to slowplay because of the more than likely chance that you'll miss on the river and then he won't get paid. He knows you called that big bet on the flop so you'll probably call the 500 on the turn. It screams AJ to me.

Although i might just push this, given heros description of villian paying off with a J when he hits, it seems retarded not to wait till he makes his hand and then get the money in. esp since similary he prolly has 0 fold eq v AJ...