my letter to party (long), and their initial response

[phillydilly]

earlier this moring i was rediculously bored at work, so i decided to write a letter to party about the bonuses this month. I tried to be courtious and helpful, while saying I would not be playing there. I'll post my letter, and there initial response, if there is a followup from their "management team" i'll post it.


Date: 2005-10-06 08:30
To: bonus@partypoker.com; info@partypoker.com; marketing@partypoker.com
Subject: General Comments[#3749508]

Party Poker Promotions Department,

I recently received an offer from Party Poker for the following:

From Wednesday, October 5 through Monday, October 31, 2005, you can earn 4525 Regular Party Points and receive 380 dollars in cash!

I do appreciate this offer, however I will not be making use of it. As Party Poker was one of the first poker sites I played on, and I enjoyed it very much, I thought I'd take a few minutes to point out why I will not be playing on Party Poker for this offer. This is not to be critical, but to hopefully show how you can improve to bring my play back to Party Poker.

First of all, I am currently a no limit holdem player. According to the party points website, I earn 4 points for every 20 raked hands. This means I would need to play 22,625 hands for $380. Currently there are published reload bonuses for a Party Poker Skin for $500 for 10,000 hands. Half the hands, more money.

Secondly, there are other money back per hand plans worth roughly 2-3 cents a hand (assuming playing at the NL25 game, this would be more at higher stakes). $380 for 22625 hands works out to 1-2 cents a hand. While this may not seem like much, over the course of 22,000+ hands this is $200+ dollars difference.

With two offers worth more money and lower hand requirements, while still able to play on the Party Poker network, there is not much motivation to bring my play to Party Poker.

As far as solutions to these issues go, I would propose a few. The first would be to raise the bonus amount. The second would be to lower the hand requirements. Another change would be to change the point structure for no limit, instead of all no limit games being 4 points for 20 hands, make a no limit point structure similar to the limit point structure, with more points being awarded per 20 hands as the limits increase.

My last solution is to make party points more valuable in of themselves. Currently party points can be traded in for clothing, or freerolls. As the freerolls are for relatively low dollar amounts with thousands of players, these have negligible value. Now, if I compare the party point system to other poker sites, I can find the following:
Pokershare.com, points can be traded in for a world poker tour tournament entry
UltimateBet.com, points can be traded in for $10,000.00
Hollywoodpoker.com, points can be traded in for entries into 10+1 and 20+2 multitable tournaments, not just freerolls.

These are just to name a few. If Party Poker started having some nice high end prizes, it would increase play a great deal.

Those are some of my suggestions on how party poker can win back players it has lost such as myself. While I am only a low stakes player, and do not generate anywhere near the rake of some other players, these are sentiments I have seen expressed by players from .5/1 up to 100/200.

Just my thoughts,
Nick



their response:




Dear Nicholas,

Thank you for contacting us.

We are happy to know that you enjoyed playing at our site. We value you as a player and also see that you have been a very good player on our site.

We have forwarded your comments to our Management Team who will decide on the best course of action. Your feedback is very important to us and helps us to continue to provide the ultimate online gaming experience to all our players.

Thank you very much for taking the time to share your thoughts with us.

Note: Please do not disclose your password to any individual/organization claiming to represent us. We will never ask you for the password to your account. If you receive any email or phone call from anyone requesting you to provide your password please report it to us immediately.

Our Customer Care Department is available 24/7 to assist you via email.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site!

Ajay P
Poker Customer Care

[jrz1972]

Nice email, and a surprisingly on-target response from Party.

FWIW, I don't think the "give me more bonus money with fewer raked hands required" suggesting is going to go anywhere. I can understand why Party wants to scale back their bonuses a bit and I can't say I blame them for it. This month's "solution" isn't the right way to go, though.

[buriedbeds]

I actually did the same thing last night, but the tone of my e-mail was quite different, and my reply was very different - much more personalized.

My e-mail:

"Let me get this straight - $75 for about 10050 raked hands (at the lower limits/sit and go tournaments that I frequent)??? That is a really, really bad bonus, in terms of the industry standards. At7x I would have had to play 525 hands. Do you actually expect me(or anyone else) to be happy with that, considering what we've beengiven in the past?? Especially when anyone who plays regularly also frequents the poker forums and knows for a fact that other peopleare getting *far* superior offers, seemingly arbitrarily?

I can see why you would act this way towards "bonus whores" who use your site only during the week that you offer the bonuses, but as someone who has NEVER done that, as someone who plays all month long at several different levels, games and formats, and as someone who has referred players to your site in the past, I need to say that I am *very* disappointed, and I am now considering taking a step I hadn't yet taken - taking my business elsewhere.

A formerly loyal Party Poker user-

-(my full real-world name)"

Their response:

"Dear (My name),

Thank you for contacting us.

I would like to inform you that it is basically the "Marketing Team" that selects a particular group of players randomly each time they have a new bonus or a new promotion. The bonus you are referring to is only for a few players selected randomly by the marketing department. Each player gets one or the other bonus at a particular point of time apart from the regular bonuses we have.

This is not a bonus, it is a Player Club Points promotion. PartyPoker is known for offering the best bonuses in the online poker industry. Not only that, we are the largest online gaming site in the world. This is mainly because of the bonuses and special promotions that we offer to our players. Also, due to the trust and goodwill that we have. We will continue to offer the bonuses with raked hands restrictions from time to time as we have done in the past.

(My Name), while I was going through the account I see that you are eligible for IGMPAY bonus. To avail this bonus you have to make a deposit through the iGM-PAY deposit option and use the bonus code IGMPAY. This bonus would give you 20% bonus up to $100 maximum and you need to play raked hands equal to 5 times the bonus amount in 30 days.

I also see from my records that you are an avid player at our site and play at PartyPoker.com on a regular basis. Unquestionably, you are a valued player at our site. However, you need to understand that a whole lot of effort goes into the configuration of a promotion. The requirements/restrictions for a particular promotion are also formulated according to the regular feed back that we receive from our players that also involves a whole lot of extensive research.

All the above inputs are then taken into consideration and then the promotion structure is designed/formulated. We actively encourage feedback and constructive criticism from our customers in order that we can improve our service.

We sincerely appreciate your patronage and hope you enjoy playing with us. Also, you have our assurance that we are working 24/7 to make sure that you have a fulfilling Poker experience.

Note: Please do not disclose your password to any
individual/organization claiming to represent us. We will never ask you for the password to
your account. If you receive any email or phone call from anyone
requesting you to provide your password please report it to us immediately.

Our Customer Care Department is available 24/7 to assist you via email.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site!

Sid
Poker Customer Care"

I only play at Party, and while I take advantage of all the bonuses I'm really not a bonus whore - I play a lot (for someone with a full time job, at least) all month long, and at a fair range of different levels (up to 3/6 (occasionally 5/10) and 30/3 SNGs, plus the mtt) and games, so maybe that's why I got the more personalized response...

Anyway, I think that players should send in complaints, since they "value feedback."

Also, I don't know how I missed that bonus, so that's a nice upside...I'll clear it this month, and see what's what in the future.

-bb.

[krazyace5]

Sounds like they might be testing the waters so to speak, I bet if no one complained it could be an all points sytem down the road.

[phillydilly]

[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like they might be testing the waters so to speak, I bet if no one complained it could be an all points sytem down the road.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, it look like two letters got a response, so, lets keep complaining.

[Exsubmariner]

"Management Team" = e-mail deleted.

[paperboyNC]

I emailed them twice already and got almost identical responses.

Am I the only one that thought this new bonus promo was cool? It is NOT a deposit bonus, there are no cashout restrictions and I do not have to dpoesit money.
I am a mid limit player that plays an average amount per week. I dont like to deposit because I just dont have to. I withdraw once a month (usually) and when I do take part in a deposit bonus it is usually not for the full amount (i'm on a budget!) The idea that I can get a somewhat rakeback deal from party by playing the same amount that I have been sounded incredibly great to me!
Of course, I didnt get the phone call, so I am happy today burning off this bonus. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[SoCalRugger]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that thought this new bonus promo was cool?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. I'm guessing you're also the only one that didn't bother to do the math.

The REALCHANCE bonus was $150 for 1,050 raked hands. 7x playthrough requirement.

My offer this month is $80 for 935 player points. 20 raked hands = 12 player points at 3/6 and 5/10. So I'm looking at 1,560 raked hands for $80. Basically a 20x clearing requirement.

They're offering me half as much money with a 20x instead of 7x requirement.

Yeah, I'm [censored] ecstatic about this new offer.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that thought this new bonus promo was cool?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. I'm guessing you're also the only one that didn't bother to do the math.

The REALCHANCE bonus was $150 for 1,050 raked hands. 7x playthrough requirement.

My offer this month is $80 for 935 player points. 20 raked hands = 12 player points at 3/6 and 5/10. So I'm looking at 1,560 raked hands for $80. Basically a 20x clearing requirement.

They're offering me half as much money with a 20x instead of 7x requirement.

Yeah, I'm [censored] ecstatic about this new offer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must be the only one not comparing this to a deposit bonus.
I did NOT have to make a deposit.
I do NOT have cashout restrictions while I clear this bonus.

For someone like me, and I suspect the majority, I dont want to have to deposit money each time a new bonus offer comes around. And I suspect the fish dont either. It appears that this offer will be embraced by the players that you make your living from, and not the people that make their living.

I appreciate a bonus that is based entirely off of my play and not on my ability to increase my bankroll through a deposit.

[Supersetoy]

Some of us didn't even get a bonus this month.

I will post the response I receive to my email here.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]

I must be the only one not comparing this to a deposit bonus.
I did NOT have to make a deposit.
I do NOT have cashout restrictions while I clear this bonus.

For someone like me, and I suspect the majority, I dont want to have to deposit money each time a new bonus offer comes around. And I suspect the fish dont either. It appears that this offer will be embraced by the players that you make your living from, and not the people that make their living.

I appreciate a bonus that is based entirely off of my play and not on my ability to increase my bankroll through a deposit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making a deposit is not something that has ever deterred me or the vast majority here from using a bonus. So that no deposit is needed is pretty much a non-factor.

[ QUOTE ]
Making a deposit is not something that has ever deterred me or the vast majority here from using a bonus. So that no deposit is needed is pretty much a non-factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I suspect this bonus will be appreciated by 90% of their players, and trashed by the other 10%. (10%/90% on 2+2 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

[buriedbeds]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Making a deposit is not something that has ever deterred me or the vast majority here from using a bonus. So that no deposit is needed is pretty much a non-factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I suspect this bonus will be appreciated by 90% of their players, and trashed by the other 10%. (10%/90% on 2+2 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree entirely; if your argument is that most people who play on there are NOT 2+2 types (i.e. obsessive poker players who would actually know the exact number of hands thay played in any given session/hour/day/week/month), then it's an even worse promotion. The average player you're describing does not play the 10,000+ hands/month required to earn the bonus. That's a WHOLE lot of play when you're going with a single table of .5/1-3/6.

If it were a rakeback promotion that worked *incermentally*, maybe you would have a point. As it is, this is just an extraordinarily annoying bonus (regardless of whether or not I have to deposit in order to get it).

Worst. Bonus. Ever.

-bb.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Making a deposit is not something that has ever deterred me or the vast majority here from using a bonus. So that no deposit is needed is pretty much a non-factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I suspect this bonus will be appreciated by 90% of their players, and trashed by the other 10%. (10%/90% on 2+2 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree entirely; if your argument is that most people who play on there are NOT 2+2 types (i.e. obsessive poker players who would actually know the exact number of hands thay played in any given session/hour/day/week/month), then it's an even worse promotion. The average player you're describing does not play the 10,000+ hands/month required to earn the bonus. That's a WHOLE lot of play when you're going with a single table of .5/1-3/6.

If it were a rakeback promotion that worked *incermentally*, maybe you would have a point. As it is, this is just an extraordinarily annoying bonus (regardless of whether or not I have to deposit in order to get it).

Worst. Bonus. Ever.

-bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha, you would have a point if everyone had to play the same number of hands to clear it. It appears to me, from reading others numbers, that they gave every player a different bonus amount/hands required. The total I am required to play is pretty consistent with what I play normally, slightly higher. I am guessing they pulled my past info and put that number in. If thats the case, then the average player will love the bonus because he only has to play what he normally does.

Very.decent.bonus.and.much.appreciated.by.some

[Nick-Zack]

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that thought this new bonus promo was cool?

[/ QUOTE ]

I play mainly SNG's so this bonus is great for me.

[ QUOTE ]
Making a deposit is not something that has ever deterred me or the vast majority here from using a bonus. So that no deposit is needed is pretty much a non-factor.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe the idea, wrong or right, is this:

Player A no longer plays at Party. Party wants him back, so they offer him a deposit bonus.

Player B plays at Party. Party wants him to continue to play, so they offer to give him FREE MONEY for playing at the same rate he has in the past.

To Party, player B should be ecstatic, because they don't have to change their playing habits but still get free money.

However, a number of people will ONLY play where they get free money the cheapest. These people probably racked up their hands in the past not just because they liked playing at Party, but because they were chasing significant bonuses.

Unfortunately, a strong negative response might lead Party to conclude that retaining those users would be too expensive to even bother with in the future. It can't be that significant a percentage - and definitely much smaller than the number of casual players they'd like to lure back with deposit bonuses.

In fact, Party might even be trying to identify those users so that they can stop offering them bonuses altogether. I wouldn't be surprised to see even smaller bonuses, or none at all, to players who don't clear the current points-related offers.

[buriedbeds]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Making a deposit is not something that has ever deterred me or the vast majority here from using a bonus. So that no deposit is needed is pretty much a non-factor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I suspect this bonus will be appreciated by 90% of their players, and trashed by the other 10%. (10%/90% on 2+2 /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree entirely; if your argument is that most people who play on there are NOT 2+2 types (i.e. obsessive poker players who would actually know the exact number of hands thay played in any given session/hour/day/week/month), then it's an even worse promotion. The average player you're describing does not play the 10,000+ hands/month required to earn the bonus. That's a WHOLE lot of play when you're going with a single table of .5/1-3/6.

If it were a rakeback promotion that worked *incermentally*, maybe you would have a point. As it is, this is just an extraordinarily annoying bonus (regardless of whether or not I have to deposit in order to get it).

Worst. Bonus. Ever.

-bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha, you would have a point if everyone had to play the same number of hands to clear it. It appears to me, from reading others numbers, that they gave every player a different bonus amount/hands required. The total I am required to play is pretty consistent with what I play normally, slightly higher. I am guessing they pulled my past info and put that number in. If thats the case, then the average player will love the bonus because he only has to play what he normally does.

Very.decent.bonus.and.much.appreciated.by.some

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, mine's not consistent with what I play on average in a month, though it is an amount I have done before. Many, many, many, many, many other people have said that it is not consistent with what they play in a month on that single site. As best I can tell, it is at least partially random.

Furthermore, the amount required of me is particularly inconsistent with the fact that I've started playing more and more SNGs. It is an absolutely abysmal promotion, it seems, for everyone who does not fall under your specific circumstances. Particularly because the amount of raked hands you'll have to play is among the lowest I've seen. Mine is in excess of twice your amount, and I do not play anywhere near full time - I have a job and at least a little bit of a life (that distracts me from my poker playing, as opposed to the other way around... /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). Additionally, your bonus is for more than mine is, yet, by your logic, I should get a bonus of at least twice yours since I play so much more than you do. The whole thing is absurd and seemingly at least partially arbitrary. If it wasn't, everyone on here would not be so upset.

In your specific case, however, they seem to have hit the sweet spot in terms of payoff/realistic ability to meet goal. Enjoy. I, and many like me, however, am not going to throw a gigantic monkeywrench into my life so I can meet this absurd raked hand requirement for very little payoff. As a semi-serious player, I'd found up until now that just playing at the one site, which gave me a good bonus once a month, was enough to make me happy. For the first time, it looks like I might be finding another place to play. Not because I particularly want to, but because it just makes more sense to put my play where it pays the best. Which, it seems, might no longer be PartyPoker.

-bb.

[ QUOTE ]
Mine is in excess of twice your amount, and I do not play anywhere near full time
Additionally, your bonus is for more than mine is, yet, by your logic, I should get a bonus of at least twice yours since I play so much more than you do.-bb.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either I have been drinking or you are seeing imaginary numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
the amount required of me is particularly inconsistent with the fact that I've started playing more and more SNGs.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
and I do not play anywhere near full time - I have a job

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
As a semi-serious player, I'd found up until now that just playing at the one site, which gave me a good bonus once a month, was enough to make me happy.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a player that plays nowhere near full-time, plays mostly sit&gos and will leave if he doesn’t get an easy to clear bonus every single month.
Somehow I don’t think party is going to be crying if you leave.

[NiR]

am i the only one who thinks this will be the EASIEST BONUS TO CLEAR? deposit 500$ wait a week and bam u get 1000 pts. wait a couple days and deposit another 500$ ..wait a week and bam another 1000$ and the points u have remaining just play and earn them... simple!!! im a genius.

[ QUOTE ]
am i the only one who thinks this will be the EASIEST BONUS TO CLEAR? deposit 500$ wait a week and bam u get 1000 pts. wait a couple days and deposit another 500$ ..wait a week and bam another 1000$ and the points u have remaining just play and earn them... simple!!! im a genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

im assuming u realise that the above points are bonus points and not regular points and so wont count towards this "bonus"......they will come in handy for another cap tho /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[NiR]

and i dont think party specifically gave people the amount of points needed to finish the hands on how much they play. i havnt played in party in months and they gave me a preety big bonus.

[NiR]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
am i the only one who thinks this will be the EASIEST BONUS TO CLEAR? deposit 500$ wait a week and bam u get 1000 pts. wait a couple days and deposit another 500$ ..wait a week and bam another 1000$ and the points u have remaining just play and earn them... simple!!! im a genius.

[/ QUOTE ]

im assuming u realise that the above points are bonus points and not regular points and so wont count towards this "bonus"......they will come in handy for another cap tho /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]



wtf... ARE YOU SERIOUS? this [censored] bonus sucks ass!!!! omfg. how da hell i am gonna finish all those hands. screw it.

[Jimbo]

I got the $70 bonus for 760 pts, a walk in the park for me, found money if you will. The more 2+2's that leave Party the better for me, this promotion even became more valuable. I hope every single one of you unhappy TAG's pack up and leave. Go to UB I heard their new point count bonus plan is wonderful. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Freudian]

Party are run by morons. Your post is an example.

They have for serveral years offered people like me (who basically leech on them) bonuses and I clear them and leave. Meanwhile they construct the bonuses so that the player base who should be highly valuable to them, the casual players, won't have time to clear them. And they seem to ignore those loyal players like you, who play there even when not having a bonus.

Seriously, even an idiot should be able to figure out that taking care of their loyal players should be top priority.

That they are now cutting off people like me is a good sign of them having some kind of idea what to do, but if they at the same time don't step it up when it comes to taking care of their loyal customers it is a wasted opportunity.

Anyone with common sense could have made changes that make sense (from Partys perspective) ages ago. But it's like they are determined to let someone else be the biggest card room online.

[Guthrie]

On-target response from Party?

It's boilerplate, just like any other response to any other e-mail.

[ QUOTE ]
Very.decent.bonus.and.much.appreciated.by.some

[/ QUOTE ]
Free money if I play a bunch, I don't need to do anything else like deposit. This deal is fantastic.

[321Mike]

I think a lot of people are misunderstanding what Party is trying to do with the points for cash offer. This is not intended to be a bonus - this is their way of giving us rakeback. They've been trying to figure out why high volume players are leaving Party and the answer they got was that we want rakeback. So that's what we've got.

If you do the math you'll find that earning the points and getting the "bonus" will add up to 15-25% rakeback. Of course, we said we would play at Party more with rakeback so they set the number of hands needed to reach the goal higher than our previous play. In other words, we said we would play more at Party with rakeback so play a little more than you have in the past and you've got it.

As far as the bonuses go, somebody else posted a response from Party saying they were going to stagger the reload bonuses to avoid the usual log jam of bonus clearing rocks. This sounds like a good idea to me. And I really hope it's true because I didn't get a reload bonus pop-up yet.

[pokerswami]

Here is my E-Mail from PartyPoker dated 10-06-05, 11:35 PM EDT:
[ QUOTE ]
Dear XXXXXXXXXXXX,

At PartyPoker.com, we have an amazing bonus offer on tap exclusively for you.

Make a real money deposit using bonus code "BONUSOCT" by October 12th and receive a 20% bonus up to $100. Use this extra cash on your favorite poker tables!

Party for free - $100,000 freeroll
Just in case the $50,000 prize pool last month was not enough for you, we have increased the PartyPoints mega free roll to $100,000. The Party for Free tournament qualifiers will be running from October 1 to October 23, 2005. The grand finale is on Sunday, October 23, at 6:40 p.m. EST. The first prize will be at least $20,000. There is no cash buy-in for this tournament! Use your PartyPoints to enter one of the daily qualifying events or buy-in directly into the finals.

In the meantime, please check out the News & Events page to catch up with all our latest promotions.

See you at the tables!

Sincerely,

The PartyPoker.com Team
info@partypoker.com
US & Canada Only: 800-852-4719
UK/Europe: 011 800 7789 7537


[/ QUOTE ]

Note that it doesn't tell me how I clear the bonus.

Two unfortunate coincidences are that I'm too short of cash to use this, and they don't offer what I want to play, anyway.

I've had $6X.XX at Party, dormant, for a while now. I should have moved it to Neteller and then redeposited.

[LoveDub]

[ QUOTE ]

I got the $70 bonus for 760 pts, a walk in the park for me, found money if you will.
[ QUOTE ]


Me too, mine was a clone of the previous bonus. 15%/Max $100/7x. I'm not complaining, I'm already half way through. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Very.decent.bonus.and.much.appreciated.by.some

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm in the 'no thanks' column, because for me this works out as an especially crappy deposit bonus: My funds are elsewhere, so I'd have to redeposit, and the playthrough at my usual level is something like 30-40x. If I had nothing else to do, maybe, but there are so many better opportunities out there.

[jrz1972]

[ QUOTE ]
If you do the math you'll find that earning the points and getting the "bonus" will add up to 15-25% rakeback.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand where people are getting this from. I'm being offered $35 to play ~14,000 hands at my normal, micro-limit level. No way is that 15% rb.

I'm I figuring this right?

Offered $240 for 2775 points. I play NL so:
4 pts/ 20 raked hands = .2 pts / raked hand ===> 13,875 raked hands to get 2,775 points! Think I'll stick with my Empire 'overhead reduction' of 28%.

[jrz1972]

You don't get .2 pts per raked hand. You get 4 points for every 20 raked.

19 raked hands = 0
20 raked hands = 4 points
39 raked hands = 4 points

Those "leftover" raked hands do not credited onto your next session. They just disappear.

You're invariably going to end up wasting a bunch of raked hands by not playing them in increments of exactly 20 hands at a time, so your estimate definitely understates the actual number you'd have to play.

[smb394]

I'm being offered $100 for 1355 Party Points.

At $2-4, you get 6 points for every 20 raked hands, so I would need 4,516 raked hands in perfect blocks of 20 (highly unlikely). But assuming I need 4,500 raked hands and that 57% or so are raked at $2-4, I would need 7,900 dealt hands. (Of course, since I'm not playing in perfect batches of 20 raked hands, this figure would be quite a bit higher.)

But assuming that 8,000 dealt hands is all I'd need, this $110 bonus would work out to about 12% RB. With the actual hands required to realistically do this, we're looking at high single digits for the equivalent RB %. No thanks.

[ QUOTE ]
You don't get .2 pts per raked hand. You get 4 points for every 20 raked.

19 raked hands = 0
20 raked hands = 4 points
39 raked hands = 4 points

Those "leftover" raked hands do not credited onto your next session. They just disappear.

You're invariably going to end up wasting a bunch of raked hands by not playing them in increments of exactly 20 hands at a time, so your estimate definitely understates the actual number you'd have to play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks...forgot about that. This bonus is getting uglier by the minute.

As another poster eloquently put it...

worst. bonus. ever. (with the possible exception of Full Tilt deposit bonus)

[axioma]

i havent read the whole thread but...

boo hoo, they are not giving you as much free money anymore.

you guys complaing about 'bad' bonuses are really starting to look totally pathetic. if only you invested as much energy on actually getting better at poker...

[pokerswami]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys complaing about 'bad' bonuses are really starting to look totally pathetic. if only you invested as much energy on actually getting better at poker...

[/ QUOTE ]

You have a point, but playing poker is gambling.

Part of being a smart gambler includes things such as playing when and where you have an advantage. It includes knowing what is going on in your field, including places to play and the advantages and disadvantages of playing there.

By exchanging information in these forums, the players can educate themselves to make better decisions about when, where, how and in what form to gamble.

Think about how many of the players who read these forums first learned of the existence of rakeback here.

Many, many players can now read this thread and be alerted that they may have been wrong in their assumptions about their raked hand requirements to qualify for their specific PartyPoker bonus.

[ QUOTE ]
Part of being a smart gambler includes things such as playing when and where you have an advantage.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unless it also includes crying, what we've seen here is still over the top.

I think Party is making a concerted effort to weed out the "advantage players," while targeting their bonuses to the casual players.

That's probably good business. We'll see.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Party is making a concerted effort to weed out the "advantage players," while targeting their bonuses to the casual players.

[/ QUOTE ]

They will lose players to other sites that offer decent reloads. Does Party really want to see their player base go down in a time when shareholders are watching those numbers?

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
i havent read the whole thread but...

boo hoo, they are not giving you as much free money anymore.

you guys complaing about 'bad' bonuses are really starting to look totally pathetic. if only you invested as much energy on actually getting better at poker...

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me guess, you are an affiliate rather than a player?

The thing to remember is there are hundreds of sites out there and many of them offer nice bonuses on a regular basis at no higher than 10X. Many offer other nice perks that Party doesn't.

So everyone has a choice where to play. If other sites are willing to offer you more to play there, then you can take advantage of the fight for players currently going on.

If/when Party loses significant numbers of players, then they will have to become more competitive with the real world again. For now, they feel they don't have to be competitive. They feel players are and will always be totally loyal to them.

Maybe that is true. But I know I play where I get the good comps. It only makes sense for me.

[ QUOTE ]
They will lose players to other sites that offer decent reloads.

[/ QUOTE ]
They will lose a few players. Most players (including almost all casual players, which are the ones they really want back) will either think the bonuses are fine or not care either way.

The system is clearly designed to make an effort to retain casual players with the reload bonuses and better points-based bonuses. Since casual players make up the vast majority of their customer base, it's a strategy that makes sense.

They didn't intend the bonuses to be amazingly great for everybody. If you play there anyway, any bonus is better than none. If you leave to go to another site as soon as a bonus doesn't meet your expectations, they may prefer to have you go to that other site and lower its profit margin.

I think we, in this little community where everyone's so attuned to affiliates and bonuses, tend to overrate the willingness of players to switch sites based on bonus alone. I don't see Absolute going nuts with traffic, and Stars keeps growing despite having the fewest bonuses in the industry.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
The system is clearly designed to make an effort to retain casual players with the reload bonuses and better points-based bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better points-based bonuses? Better than what? All I see are people pissed off that they were offered one of these things.

That doesn't help them retain Jack Crap.

[timprov]

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[ QUOTE ]
The system is clearly designed to make an effort to retain casual players with the reload bonuses and better points-based bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better points-based bonuses? Better than what? All I see are people pissed off that they were offered one of these things.

That doesn't help them retain Jack Crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, somebody on the "retaining casual players" side is going to have to explain why these are good bonuses for them. The only people I can see who benefit by the points for $ bonuses are SnG players, since they can actually earn them off (and fairly fast), unlike the standard bonuses.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The system is clearly designed to make an effort to retain casual players with the reload bonuses and better points-based bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

Better points-based bonuses? Better than what? All I see are people pissed off that they were offered one of these things.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, in our closed environment here the piss can't get out of the building, so to speak.

And even so, lots of people (in this very thread even) have said they have no problem whatsoever with their points-based bonus. The screamers tend to post repeatedly, though (not to single out anyone in particular... /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

Edit: I guess you were probably confused about my use of "better." Some of the points-based bonuses are better than others - some WAY better. HTH.

[Supersetoy]

Here is my response I received:

[ QUOTE ]

It is the "Marketing Team" that selects a particular group of players randomly
each time they have a new bonus or a new promotion. At this point of time there
are no bonus promotions running. Bonus promotions are solely designed by our
Marketing department and it is based on their prudence. I request you kindly
click on the link mentioned below for more information on the 'Standard Terms
and Conditions':

http://www.partypoker.com/offers/standard_terms_conditions.html

However as an on going promotion, I offer you a 20% bonus up to a maximum of
$100 on your next deposit made through iGM-Pay account. Please quote the bonus
code as "IGMPAY" and we will do the rest.

We at PartyPoker.com come up with bonus promotions from time to time. You will
be updated via email or post login pop up messages. Hence, I request you to keep
checking the News and Events section on the website for all current bonus
promotions. However, make sure that you do not make any cashouts prior to making
a qualifying deposit, otherwise according to the terms and conditions of the
Bonus and promotions, you will become ineligible for the bonus promotion.

Note: Please do not disclose your password to any individual/organization
claiming to represent us. We will never ask you for the password to your
account. If you receive any email or phone call from anyone requesting you to
provide your password please report it to us immediately.

Our Customer Care Department is available 24/7 to assist you via email.

Thank you for choosing us as your online gaming site!

Beena
Poker Customer Care


[/ QUOTE ]

However, I have already used the IGMPAY bonus already! What do you think will happen if I try to deposit using that code and don't get the bonus? Should I try it anyway and then complain when they don't give me the bonus amount?

[Synergistic Explosions]

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And even so, lots of people (in this very thread even) have said they have no problem whatsoever with their points-based bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh really? Lots?

Why are you arguing Parties new crappy bonus policy? It sucks lizard tails! You know it and I know it, and just about anyone with any smarts knows it. It's not competitive to what is presently being offered by any measure.

Party will lose customers. You say they don't care about customers that will leave because of crappy bonuses. But I think they care very much, especially when their numbers are down month to month.

Seriously, are you an affiliate of Party?

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You say they don't care about customers that will leave because of crappy bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, YOU say I say that. I say that the number of people who leave due to these bonuses will represent approximately the ink used on one decimal point of Party's next financial statement.

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Seriously, are you an affiliate of Party?

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this your response to anyone who disagrees with you?

"I think Coke tastes better than Pepsi."

"No, Coke tastes like monkey balls. Are you a Coke bottler?"

[Synergistic Explosions]

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Is this your response to anyone who disagrees with you?


[/ QUOTE ]

Most of the time yes. For I can't understand how a player like me could sit here and defend Partys new point based bonuses when they are a major turn for the worse. I'm a player, I don't care if Party makes 500 million this year or 800 million. They make more than they should. So when they find ways to take more from the players, I don't accept it.

For this is all it is, a way for them to take more from us players so they can show an extra 10 or 20 million in profits to their shareholders. You got to remember, this is a huge company making hundreds and hundreds of millions. They aren't struggling by any measures. They can afford to offer some of their rake profits back to the players who supply it for them. By no means have their monthly reloads stopped them from making multiple hundreds of millions.

So you sit here and argue that party is smart for maximizing their profit potential at the expense of those of us who expect some type of incentive to continue paying their rake that makes them hundreds of millions! You just aren't making sense to me, if indeed all you are is a player like me.

How much do they have to make, ten billion, before you think they are making enough? It's the players who keep them in profits buddy. We are the ones paying the rake. They are the ones pissing us off now for seemingly becoming way to greedy.

You say casual players don't care. They will.

So answer my question. Are you an affiliate?

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
I say that the number of people who leave due to these bonuses will represent approximately the ink used on one decimal point of Party's next financial statement.


[/ QUOTE ]

If it were the casual players who would leave you'd be correct. It's the regular players who generate the vast majority of the rake and keep the games going. A guy who logs in once every two weeks for an hour or two may dump a couple of hundred bucks to the table, but only accounts for a small amount of rake. The guy playing 4 tables for 30-40 hours a week is where Party makes their money.

Now will those players leave? I don't know. I suspect most of them are already playing through a skin anyway, but that still contributes to Party indirectly I suppose.

[ QUOTE ]
So answer my question. Are you an affiliate?

[/ QUOTE ]
My answer is that you couldn't care less whether I am or not, because you've basically ignored everything I've said, in favor of your "bonus whores are Party's core audience" argument.

Furthermore, to think that an affiliate would actually argue against keeping THEIR core customers happy (unlike Party, an affiliate would be highly dependent on bonus whores' signups for their livelihood) you'd have to be an idiot.

I look forward to another response that has nothing to do with what I've typed up to now.

[Pov]

The goal of most any enterprise is to maximize their profit. What you're really trying to argue is that they are actually hurting their long term profit by maximizing short term profits. If you're actually arguing they're making "enough" so they should give some back then that doesn't make sense in a capitalistic system. I would rather they charged as little as possible in rake to stay running but I wouldn't expect any company foolish enough to do that to last very long. They will (and should) charge the max rake and offer the fewest bonuses possible to maximize profits. If they lose too many players that will hurt profits too, but losing some percentage of them while making more off the rest is just good economics.

In return we consumers get to flock to other poker sites to punish them when they go too far. That's the free market.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And even so, lots of people (in this very thread even) have said they have no problem whatsoever with their points-based bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh really? Lots?

Why are you arguing Parties new crappy bonus policy? It sucks lizard tails! You know it and I know it, and just about anyone with any smarts knows it. It's not competitive to what is presently being offered by any measure.

Party will lose customers. You say they don't care about customers that will leave because of crappy bonuses. But I think they care very much, especially when their numbers are down month to month.

Seriously, are you an affiliate of Party?

[/ QUOTE ]

They will lose customers like me, who has been costing them money month in and month out. I figured a long time ago that me threatening to leave Party is really shooting blanks. So I don't. I take a decent bonus when offered. If I don't get any that is fine also. Party has no real way of winning me back except offering me 30%+ rakeback. And I don't expect it happening anytime soon.

From a business perspective, they are doing the right thing. Now they just need to learn to take care of the customers they are making money off and they might start to reseble an organization with a good business plan.

[Synergistic Explosions]

I suppose if we players keep saying it's OK for the sites to do whatever they want to maximize profits, then they will.

Personally, I don't overpay when I buy. I guess I'm in a minority here. You guys have fun at Party, and when they raise the max rake to $5.00, be sure to argue that it's a free market system and they are just good businessman.

[Pov]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose if we players keep saying it's OK for the sites to do whatever they want to maximize profits, then they will.

Personally, I don't overpay when I buy. I guess I'm in a minority here. You guys have fun at Party, and when they raise the max rake to $5.00, be sure to argue that it's a free market system and they are just good businessman.

[/ QUOTE ]

If 10 people pay $5.00 or 12 people pay $4.00, which should Party do? Not only is it okay for them, they would be irresponsible to do otherwise. You can't seriously be arguing they should NOT maximize their profit . . . that goes against everything a poker player should believe in.

Now, once again, if charging 10 people $5.00 leads to a loss of critical mass leading to a further drop to 8 people then 6 people, etc. then they would have made a bad long term mistake. If that will in fact happen is a good point for discussion.

Also, don't assume the people defending Party's efforts to maximize their profits are going to be playing there. I can argue for women's rights even though I'm male too. This doesn't mean I won't be playing there either. I'll do whatever maximizes my profit based on the other available sites. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Synergistic Explosions]

I wouldn't play a site that charges .50 rake at a 5.00 pot and .75 at a 12 pot anyways. Unless they gave a decent bonus to make up for the highest rakes in the universe.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And even so, lots of people (in this very thread even) have said they have no problem whatsoever with their points-based bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh really? Lots?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, lot’s. The lot’s of players that party intended to make happy. Since this bonus came out I have spent about 12 hours playing, everything 3/6 and below. I have not seen a single complaint in the chat boxes, nothing but positive. The regular every day players are enjoying it.

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you arguing Parties new crappy bonus policy? It sucks lizard tails! You know it and I know it, and just about anyone with any smarts knows it. It's not competitive to what is presently being offered by any measure.

[/ QUOTE ]

What new ‘crappy bonus policy’ would that be? Yesterday I received a deposit bonus, one day after the points bonus. It appears that many others also received a deposit bonus.
That means that this month a received a deposit bonus plus a points bonus. That not only makes me happy but proves that Party is willing to go the extra mile to keep my business. I am going to guess that they didn’t give deposit bonuses to the turds that are low profit for them, the bonus whores.

[Synergistic Explosions]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And even so, lots of people (in this very thread even) have said they have no problem whatsoever with their points-based bonus.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh really? Lots?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, lot’s. The lot’s of players that party intended to make happy. Since this bonus came out I have spent about 12 hours playing, everything 3/6 and below. I have not seen a single complaint in the chat boxes, nothing but positive. The regular every day players are enjoying it.

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you arguing Parties new crappy bonus policy? It sucks lizard tails! You know it and I know it, and just about anyone with any smarts knows it. It's not competitive to what is presently being offered by any measure.

[/ QUOTE ]

What new ‘crappy bonus policy’ would that be? Yesterday I received a deposit bonus, one day after the points bonus. It appears that many others also received a deposit bonus.
That means that this month a received a deposit bonus plus a points bonus. That not only makes me happy but proves that Party is willing to go the extra mile to keep my business. I am going to guess that they didn’t give deposit bonuses to the turds that are low profit for them, the bonus whores.

[/ QUOTE ]

Horray for Party!

Another satisfied idiot who doesn't know his chin from his ass.

[ QUOTE ]
Horray for Party!

Another satisfied idiot who doesn't know his chin from his ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aha, the old name calling! Used by those that are cornered in a debate without either the brain cells or facts to come up with a logical response. I love it!!

[ QUOTE ]
Another satisfied idiot who doesn't know his chin from his ass.

[/ QUOTE ]
Something I should have done a while ago...
[ QUOTE ]
You are now ignoring this user.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
they (Party) might start to reseble an organization with a good business plan.


[/ QUOTE ]

This gets my vote for dumbest partial post of the year award.

[wdeadwyler]

Basically they denied me a 200 bonus, and i told them I hated them and I was taking my business elsewhere. They gave me a 100 bonus, because I was a "preferred player".