Getting 5-bet on the flop

[JTG51]

This hand came up in a 5/10 game a couple of weeks ago when the 2+2 group met at Foxwoods. I think Homer was at the table, he didn't participate in this hand though. I can't be sure, but I think it is the only time I've ever been 5-bet on the flop.

A very loose, aggressive player limp in from EP. He'll play any two cards and play draws as aggressively as big made hands. I raise in MP with A /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif . Everyone else folds and he calls.

Flop: Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

He bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I 4-bet, he 5-bets and I call. How do you like my play so far? What's your plan for the rest of the hand? Obviously it's easy if a spade comes up, what about an A or a Q though? What if I don't improve?

Turn: [Q /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 6 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif ] 6 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

How does the turn card change your plan, if at all?

[ElSapo]

I don't think I'd go 5 bets with anything but QQ, and I'd even then I'd prefer if both those queens were spades. If he's as (over?) agressive as you say... call the turn bet thats coming and hope for a spade. No spade, new issue. I might fold if I didn't get help, but a lot of that depends on my take on the player. You can call him down for one more bet after the river...

[Homer]

I would have 6-bet and maybe 8-bet the flop against this guy after having seen the way he plays. You could easily have the best hand, and if not, you have a good chance of catching up. That being said, I can't blame you for stopping at 5 bets. At some point, you have to give him credit for more than just a draw (or at least you would think).

There are a number of draws he could be jamming with on the flop, including a lower flush draw, 78, 74 and 43. He also could be pushing hard with top-pair (with a worse kicker).

The 6 on the turn would not change my plan which would be to bet. If raised I would call and check-call the river (unless the flush got there). If he just calls I would bet the river.

-- Homer

[Louie Landale]

The keys to this hand are [1] You've got the REAL good: top-pair-top-kicker-top-draw. That's probably WAY the best hand. If its NOT the best hand, you are only drawing dead if he's got a set now and makes quads on the turn. There are also NO cards that make you an obvious loser. You are a HUGE favorite against any hand worse than yours. You are even money against KK or 65 and only a slight dog against AA, Q6, or Q5. At worst you are a 2.5:1 dog against 66 or 55. [2] You are up against a hyper player who will cap it with a little draw.

Who needs Viagara in a situation like this.

There are a LOT more weak hands the aggressive players can get to cap it compared to reasonable hands. Figure to put in one more raise with your big pair big draw on the turn. Figure to put in 2 more raises if you improve.

You MUST also figure to show this hand down.

- Louie

[JTG51]

Wow, 8 bet one pair on the flop? You must have eaten your Wheaties today. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif I know I told you that guy was aggressive (which you saw first hand) but he's usually not that aggressive with draws.

Part of the reason I posted the hand though was to see if anyone would either 6-bet the flop (boy that sounds strange) or call the 5-bet with the intention of raising the turn if a blank hit.

[Homer]

For some reason I was thinking he had position on you. I guess I would call the 5-bet and raise his turn bet having position on him. Out of position I would definitely 6-bet (easy for me to say from the comfort of my computer) and if he 7-bet I would most likely call and either check-call or bet out on the turn.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

You can call him down for one more bet after the river...

I think calling him down if I didn't improve was my only choice. Folding TPTK on the river against an over aggressive opponent heads up in a 10 BB pot has to be a big mistake.

[JTG51]

Who needs Viagara in a situation like this.

LOL, not me. Those are my favorite kinds of flops to play.

Figure to put in one more raise with your big pair big draw on the turn.

I was thinking about raising the turn until the board paired. I didn't really want to raise and get 3-bet by a full house. Loose aggressive players do make real hands once in a while after all.

You MUST also figure to show this hand down.

I agree.

[RockLobster]

Wow, the subject draws attention to this post!

I would have stopped there (after 5 bets on the flop), then called him down w/o improving.

I don't think the turn 6 helped him any, but now I know that if I hit my flush I no longer have the absolute nuts. Therefore, I wouldn't go past one self-initiated raise on the river (if I hit my flush).

Remember that only bad play results in a truely bad beat. He sounds bad, so look out.

[Joe Tall]

I fear a hand like this, and frankly, I feared responding to this post. However, I should prepare myself for such situation.

Sadly, I think our loose aggressive has flopped a set of 5s but I would have played the hand the same way you have. 5-bets is enough, err, I shiver as I type it.

It'll be interesting to hear how it worked out.

BTW 2-3 in Fenway for the evil empire. Too bad Roger broke his hand at 299 (maybe, I dunno (I actually hope not)). We'll see next week!

[JTG51]

Well, I called the turn bet when the board paired. An off suit 7 hit the river and I called again. He showed down T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif for 7's up. My Q's up were good. Yup, 5 bets on the flop out of position with a T high flush draw.

Thanks for the help.

[Joe Tall]

I just puked on my keyboard. You'll have to point this guy out next time I'm down there, so I can sit right down next to him /forums/images/icons/grin.gif !

[RockLobster]

He showed down T/forums/images/icons/spade.gif 7/forums/images/icons/spade.gif for 7's up.

Holy cow. That wouldn't have been my first guess /forums/images/icons/smirk.gif, I pretty much assumed this was a case where Mr. LA had the goods (as tends to happen once in a while). It's unfortunate that the board paired, because if you had hit your flush you would've made a small fortune.

[Louie Landale]

Lets not confuse one's "Jealosy" with the other's "Evilness".

- Louie

[JTG51]

Wow, great poker mind and a Yankee fan Louie? If you were a woman, I think I'd be in love. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[Louie Landale]

A few of the responses say something like "Even wild folk get good hands once in a while", suggesting that one should stop raising.

Yes, its true that wild folk flop sets as often as sensible ones and therefore he may have a set. But as I've said, there are just far too many weak hands he can have, and these numbers dominate the good ones:

There are 3 ways each he can have a set of 5s or 6s, and one way he can have a set of Qs. That's a total of only 7 hands he CAN have that makes Hero's raising a bad idea. Other hands he can have to beat Hero (such as Q5) don't matterso much since Hero is only a slight underdog. Hands that THIS player can realistically cap with are 16 each 87, 74, and 43 and about 30 other 2-spade hands for a total of 78 hands; making Hero a 78:7 or ...

... a whopping 11:1 raw favorite.

Now certainly you can tone that down a bit (will Villian really PLAY and CAP with 43?). You can also tone it up to cover the gut draws/ But even if you take away as many as 2/3rds of Villians hands Hero is still a 26:7 or ...

... a big 3.5:1 realistic favorite (at the very least).

Those who don't want to gamble in that situation shouldn't be playing for keeps.

Things change drastically, of course, as you tone-down the wildness of the Villian.

The key features here are [1] Villian will cap with any draw, and [2] Statistically there are FAR more weak hands such Villians can find to like than there are lagitimate hands, and [3] Hero has Villian's draws dominated and can outdraw Villian a LOT more often than Villian can outdraw Hero.

- Louie

[Joe Tall]

I thought you were in Love with Angel_Fish? Man, you get around!?

[JTG51]

[JTG51]

The key features here are [1] Villian will cap with any draw...

That's the problem. I knew this opponent would overplay draws, I didn't know he'd 5-bet one though (which by the way, isn't a cap since we were heads up). Had I known he was that aggressive, I would have happily put in another bet or two.