Inducing the Bluff, KK hand

[jsnipes28]

About 4 hands earlier i had flopped Aces up and then folded to a gigantic raise by villain on river. He told me "2pr" in chat box and i told him that i folded A's and 8's. Anyhow, on to this hand.

NL 50 6 MAX
Hero is SB w/ K /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif
MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero raies to $2. BB calls. MP1 calls $1.5, MP2 calls $1.5,CO folds.

Flop: 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif 6s /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif
pot~$8
Hero bets $6. BB calls. MP1 folds, MP2 folds.
Turn: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
pot~$20
Hero bets $14. BB calls.
River: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif
pot~$48
Hero checks, BB moves all-in for $35. Hero calls.

is this a bad call or is this the right move to make? My thinking was that since he had just pushed me off of the best hand that he would think he could do it again. Also, the way he had been playing i could expect a raise on 3rd or 4th if he had a flush draw. Thoughts, Comments.

[Riposte]

I like to bet more preflop, like $3. Flop is good, turn is good. On the river though I think it's better to bet half the pot, and fold to a raise. That way you can get away when he really does have the flush. And if he doesn't have the flush, well just be glad he doesn't. If he folds so be it, maybe he'll call with some trash.

Be careful thinking too deeply about players trying to put moves on you.

[Macquarie]

I think it's pretty likely villain is on the flush draw here. He wouldn't raise the flop, since he's better off hoping for a call from one of the players after him and getting good pot odds that way, than trying to buy a free turn card.
No point in raising the turn either - that would pretty much pot-commit him.

What do you put him on that you beat? 98? A7?

I'd full-pot the turn, cut his odds.

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
I like to bet more preflop, like $3. Flop is good, turn is good. On the river though I think it's better to bet half the pot, and fold to a raise. That way you can get away when he really does have the flush. And if he doesn't have the flush, well just be glad he doesn't. If he folds so be it, maybe he'll call with some trash.

Be careful thinking too deeply about players trying to put moves on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't block the river - villain only has 35 behind. A block bet of $20 would leave you only $15 to call if villain pushed, You'd have to call $15 into almost $100.

[Riposte]

Then push the turn?

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
Then push the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd prefer to pot the turn, and then pay-off villain if the flush comes. No need to push the turn - just get a big enough fraction of his stack in so that you can afford to pay him off if he hits.

If he calls your $20 on the turn, and you pay off his $30 push on the river, he paid $20 to win $70 and so still made a mistake in calling the turn.

The way it was played here, villain was charged $15 on the turn to win $70, and so got correct odds (assuming you don't lay this down).

[gol4pro]

Pushing river seems awful, as no worse hands call.

If youve been known to fire 2nd barrels with AK/AQ/KQ, then I love the river check.

I call river as well.

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing river seems awful, as no worse hands call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course. Good job no-one suggested that. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Riposte]

Ahh cool, I've never looked at it this way. So does this mean you check/call the river?

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahh cool, I've never looked at it this way. So does this mean you check/call the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure. Over-charge him on the turn, and then check-call the river. Even though you make a mistake paying him off on the river, villain made a bigger mistake on the turn, and so your line is +EV.

Also, sometimes you catch a bluff from a missed straight draw...

[Riposte]

Ok got it, but how does a blocker bet work? Say you pot the turn and he calls... the pot is $60 on the river. And say villain has like $90 left or whatever.

Now would we use a blocking bet? Does it have to be like 1/3 pot, fold to a raise? He paid $20 on the turn so we have to keep the pot below $80, right?

[Macquarie]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok got it, but how does a blocker bet work? Say you pot the turn and he calls... the pot is $60 on the river. And say villain has like $90 left or whatever.

Now would we use a blocking bet? Does it have to be like 1/3 pot, fold to a raise? He paid $20 on the turn so we have to keep the pot below $80, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

To make a blocking bet (say 30 dollars into 80 dollar pot) you must have enough money behind so that you can fold to a raise.

In your example, a blocking bet of $30 into an $80 pot would leave you with $60, and I think you could now just fold to a push.

If you've got less than a pot-sized bet left on the river, I think you can't sensibly block.

No point in blocking say $20 into an $80 pot. This smacks too much of weakness, and you now can't be sure that a raise after you means you are beaten, and you'll be tempted to call...

If you're going to block you have to make it enough to be resonably sure that a weaker hand won't come over the top of you. You also have to decide that if he does come over you, you will fold. No point in blocking and then calling the raise.....better to check-call than this.

[Riposte]

[ QUOTE ]

To make a blocking bet (say 30 dollars into 80 dollar pot) you must have enough money behind so that you can fold to a raise.

In your example, a blocking bet of $30 into an $80 pot would leave you with $60, and I think you could now just fold to a push.

If you've got less than a pot-sized bet left on the river, I think you can't sensibly block.

No point in blocking say $20 into an $80 pot. This smacks too much of weakness, and you now can't be sure that a raise after you means you are beaten, and you'll be tempted to call...

If you're going to block you have to make it enough to be resonably sure that a weaker hand won't come over the top of you. You also have to decide that if he does come over you, you will fold. No point in blocking and then calling the raise.....better to check-call than this.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well what I'm trying to get at, is how can we use a blocking bet while simultaneously making sure that the villain makes a mistake by calling too much on the turn with his flush draw?

If the villain is on a flush draw on the turn, which is 4:1 odds of making his flush, and we pot the turn for $20... what do we do on the river if the villain and hero have deep enough stacks to make a blocking bet sensible?

If the villain is calling $20 on the turn with 4:1 odds, should we make sure the pot doesn't reach $80 on the river, so he makes a mistake? On the river, when calling $20 on the turn, the pot is going to be $60. So, now what do we do? If we bet more than $15, we've just made the villain's turn call correct?

Sorry if this is really basic, I've never even given thought to this kind of stuff before... is this what everyone refers to as pot control?

[Matt Flynn]

bet more preflop and flop. turn is player-dependent.