Gaybets, cold calls, wtf? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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silkyslim

10-05-2005, 05:01 PM

Both villians are kind of loose. pf raiser is aggressive. Fold pf? like the flop donkbet for protection? Turn raise spewing? Fold river?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $4. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (15.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 18.16 BB

hobbsmann

10-05-2005, 05:25 PM

Unless UTG1 is a known LAG I fold preflop. That being said I would play this hand the same postflop.

10-05-2005, 05:51 PM

As a relative newbie forgive me for this question but why the raise on turn and not on the river?

10-05-2005, 05:53 PM

I agree with duckman, no scare card on river, seems like if you thought the turn was worth raising, than so would be the river. My guess is though that he raised to represent flush, but then when he was called he was all the sudden scared of the flush.

hobbsmann

10-05-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As a relative newbie forgive me for this question but why the raise on turn and not on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pfr seems to like his hand enough as evidence of of the flop call and turn cold call, but it appears he can't beat a Q so picking up a call from him would be a good thing. IMO sb has shown a lot of strength by donking this river after his turn donk was raised so I'm not convince we are beating him enough to warrent a raise, but we will win enough so I call (plus MP1 pads the pot by overcalling).

peterchi

10-05-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Unless UTG1 is a known LAG I fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? With 9:1 immediate pot odds, I want to call with just about any two...

hobbsmann

10-05-2005, 06:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless UTG1 is a known LAG I fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really? With 9:1 immediate pot odds, I want to call with just about any two...

[/ QUOTE ]

If UTG1 is a TAG the risk of domination is fairly large IMO and I would be much more comfortable calling in the BB with 89o or 74s.

silkyslim

10-05-2005, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As a relative newbie forgive me for this question but why the raise on turn and not on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]
I wanted to protect in this large pot. maybe i can fold out some crappy club or some pair. Notice my position and how the raise wasnt for value. u newbs need to understand betting to protect as opposed to betting for value. this might have been the wrong spot but stil.....

silkyslim

10-05-2005, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with duckman, no scare card on river, seems like if you thought the turn was worth raising, than so would be the river. My guess is though that he raised to represent flush, but then when he was called he was all the sudden scared of the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well you make me sound like a big fish but yes, I raised to get hands (that may be better than mine but cant beat a flush) to fold. When CC in 2 places yes i was definately scared of the flush, and i think a river raise would be spewing

Dhani

10-05-2005, 07:28 PM

In my experience, 4 players at showdown equals atleast one flush. I am folding to any river bet into me, or called by 2 others.

thesharpie

10-05-2005, 08:55 PM

Well played, sir.

Dominic

10-05-2005, 09:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Both villians are kind of loose. pf raiser is aggressive. Fold pf? like the flop donkbet for protection? Turn raise spewing? Fold river?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $4. MP3 posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) calls, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, Hero calls.

Although you're getting 9-1 on this call, you have a horrible hand to play out of position with. IF my hand is 87s, I call - this one I let go very easily. You're going to make a 2nd best hand way too many times and you won't know when to let it go. Unless the game is ridiculously loose AND passive, this is a -EV call.

Flop: (10.33 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

But since you played it....good bet on the flop.

Turn: (7.16 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

If the purpose of your raise is to clean up your outs if you're behind, this is the wrong time to do it. Anyone with a flush draw (or who already has the flush, of course) will not fold this hand. You're only pumping the pot with extra bets here with a hand that could be drawing dead.

The time to raise here is when the turn is a NON-flush card. You aren't going to bluff 3 other players in a game this size. And you know at least one of them HAS to be drawing to that flush, right?

River: (15.16 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Here's where you raise: if you suspect you have the SB beat, or that he's bluffing - you do NOT want the overcall from the UTG+1. He could have KQ, AQ, whatever. Raise here to make that kind of hand fold - if you get 3-bet by either player, you can make an easy fold.

Final Pot: 18.16 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

But seriously, QJos out of position is a loser in ther long run. Now, if it was suited, I might just 3-bet it to make sure I have the oddds on the flop and turn to keep drawing!

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

ZenMusician

10-05-2005, 09:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
...if it was suited, I might just 3-bet it to make sure I have the oddds on the flop and turn to keep drawing!

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

OMFG!!! We're still on this one? (Ok, so I still almost fell out of my chair
laughing) NH SIR

-ZEN

thesharpie

10-05-2005, 09:42 PM

You want to 3 bet Q/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif from the blinds because Bob Ciaffone does it. He claims he does it very rarely yet most of his examples in a book I read involve him 3 betting suited stuff that might only be worth a raise.

BigBrother

10-05-2005, 10:02 PM

...and then Ciaffone folds the flop to a bet and a raise cuz the board might pair and he might end up drawing dead. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

BigBrother

10-05-2005, 10:34 PM

Based on your reads I'd put pfr on 99, TT or JJ in calldown mode (He would give up on unimproved AK by the river and he would play back at you with AA, KK, AQ, or KQ. If he had QQ he might smooth call the flop and your turn raise to keep SB in the hand, but would pop the river when the board paired. Seems likely you may have UTG beat.

Unless he is just spewing, I'm having a hard time putting SB on anything you beat, given the turn and river bets after you took the lead: Q3s, baby flush, 23s? 73s and a brain fart on the river? 77 played weakly? There seems to be way too much cold-calling from the SB in 3/6, and you said he's kind of loose.

I might play it the same way but I don't have high hopes for taking down this pot. 18 BB pot (thanks in part to hero's making a move on the turn) is too big to fold for just one more on the river with top pair, I've made that mistake before and it hurts for a long time.

Dominic

10-06-2005, 12:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You want to 3 bet Q/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/spade.gif from the blinds because Bob Ciaffone does it. He claims he does it very rarely yet most of his examples in a book I read involve him 3 betting suited stuff that might only be worth a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

never read one of his books....

chesspain

10-06-2005, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I wanted to protect in this large pot. maybe i can fold out some crappy club or some pair. Notice my position and how the raise wasnt for value. u newbs need to understand betting to protect as opposed to betting for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you can explain to us noobs why you want to fold out some crappy club?