Gimme a line

[Drontier]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (8 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

[kidcolin]

I like it, though I'm debating between value betting AK here or check-calling. Player dependent, I suppose.

[Drontier]

total unknown

[Drontier]

btw i just got like AK 15 times in 10 minutes

[redbeard]

hope the other 14 gave you better flops than this one. i think i'd just check call the river on this one.

[Drontier]

the interesting thing here is so many guys will bet this river with any pp and im calling anyways right? well AQ KQ type hands are goign to take the fee showdown and ive just lost value. but then again after 3 betting and getting called down, i really dont think im winning... im just confused

[Lash]

Without knowing anything about the button I like everything except the river bet. I would have check'd with intention of calling vs. an unknown.

Lead betting the river may be better than check / call vs. specific opponent types that have the following tendencies...
-Passive
-Pays off Ace high habitually
-Low bluff freq / river aggression
-Other?...

All of the above might make bet / fold to a raise better than check call, but then the pot's o.k size (8bb when you lead?) so you really need to know the button to bet / fold to raise... Pot really needs to be small to lead vs. unknown here... IMHO

[Drontier]

well ok the average opponent once checked to on the river will bet many pocket pairs and check weak aces or kings they had intention of calling down correct? Perhaps the lowest of pockets may check taking the free showdown, but what essentially happens is i lose the opportunity of a bet from other aces or kings that wanted to showdown. is this worth the frequency of the small pockets taking a free showdown? and i dont think the average unknown bluffs here at all, if he happens to be one of them sucks for me.

[Lash]

Note that I edited my above post to reflect that I think the pot needs to be smaller to make lead betting the river correct vs. an unknown.

It’s funny you posted this hand. I’ve been wasting a lot of time lately debating (with myself mostly) about bet/fold vs. check/call on the river. Here is an interesting thread on exactly what we are talking about:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=3532761&amp;page=2&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1

I don’t think the logic behind a river bet / fold here is that bad…it’s just that when you are wrong you are really wrong. Why not let him make the marginal decision on the end, and you make the easy one? Once you get information on him, then you can start threading the needle in close decisions like this.

[Drontier]

except that this is not even remotely close to a scare card..

[Spicymoose]

Easy check/call. The only hand you are missing value on is AQ, and possibly AT and lower, but doubtful. Most of these hands he will fold, but he may bet if you check to him. Also, you might get a free showdown if he has some sort of pocket pair and is a wuss to value bet. I think these reasons make a bet/call way more profitable.

[Lash]

[ QUOTE ]
except that this is not even remotely close to a scare card..

[/ QUOTE ]

The post I linked above is regarding check / call vs. bet / fold when a scare card hits. However, I’m sure you can see how some of the ideas apply. Anyway, my point was that I’ve been giving situations similar to this some thought lately. Consequently, I feel pretty confident in my standard play vs. an unknown here (check-call) being better than bet – fold.

Consider the following…

The action leading to the river seems to indicate you are against one of the following types (groups) of hands…

1-Unimproved Ax
2-Unimproved big cards
3-Passively played pocket pair
4-Passively played busted spade draw

Granted, an unknown could have anything, but I believe it’s safe to say the above 4 are his most likely holdings.

Your whole argument for lead betting the river should be based on the VALUE of when worse hands call that would not bet when checked to. So I ask… Where’s the value?

The only glaring value bet I see (vs. your average unknown) is when the unknown has a group 1 hand (unimproved Ax).

Group 2? Big cards are more likely to bluff bet or bluff raise on average… not call down.
Group 3? The only value I see here is that your opponent misplays his hand by calling instead of raising.
Group 4? On average these hands will bet when checked to or raise (forcing you to fold) more often then they will call.

All of this seems to point to check call and I haven’t even touched on the following…
-You have an Ace in your hand so it reduces the chances your opponent has one of the group 1 hands above
-Your opponent may check a hand that has you beat saving you a BB
-The times you lead the river and he raises you are getting 11 to 1 on a call yet following the logic of a value lead bet on your part you almost have to fold…. Your opponent could easily be a bluffer or a river desperado (last chance to win w/ busted draw) kind of player.

…Are you willing to tell me that you will give up a pot with 10 or 11 BB here just so that you can pick up a bet from some moron paying off with A2? who by the way may have bet when you checked anyway?

To me the above just scratches the surface. Sorry if I sound like a dogmatic preacher, but that’s the way I argue and I’m pressed for time… Gotta catch a plane to Reno in a couple hours… Where I’ll be check calling the river vs. an unknown in your spot all things being equal.

[Drontier]

lol, well i like your layout, but the only thing i see differently is that the busted spade draw will often contain an A or K(he did raise pf) and so it really cant be a category on its own. i think the most likely holdings for my opponent at this point are a slowplayed J, AQ AT KQ type hands, and a middle pp. I actually do not believe that AQ AT type hands will bet when checked to on the river(even with the busted flush draw). Their hand has lots of showdown value and given my weakness by checking the river theyve gotta think they have a decent chance of being good. ceteris peribus, if both decisions were deadlocked at equal EV, betting would be better as it makes my image become into a maniac that bets regardless of board. So an average pp playing holding a hand lets say 7s. Does he bet when checked to? I really think so. This is a tough one and thats the reason Im posting it. And your layout has swayed me closer to the other side, but I'm still uncertain as to which is better.