Quick Basic ?'s on a few PL hands

[jhall23]

Been playing a lot of Omaha Hi over the past few months and now want to get some Omaha/8 under my belt so I have been playing around some in the Kiddie pool. Not much experience with Omaha/8 yet, but I have skimmed some stuff on this board, checked out a few web sites and have read Ciaffones very small section on it in his Omaha book.

These are simple I am sure just want some conformation.


Hand 1:

When it get's back to me stacks are too short to simply call correct? Better to just take the equity edge I have here and push based on the dead money? UTG was very loose and I would not be suprised for him to call me here (as he did).

Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 ($14.40)
<font color="#C00000">Hero ($21.87)</font>
Button ($23.40)
SB ($66.91)
BB ($42.64)
UTG ($24.05)
<font color="#C00000">UTG+1 ($21.44)</font>
MP1 ($16.53)
<font color="#C00000">MP2 ($9.73)</font>

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, Button calls $1, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.75, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to $5.35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $18.4</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $21.44 (All-In)</font>, MP2 calls $4.38 (All-In), Hero calls $3.04.

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Hands 2 + 3:

I've been experimenting with Pre-flop and don't really mind testing out hands to see if they play well at all post flop. I imagine these 2 hands might need to hit the muck PF. Can you tell I play Hi?

Hand 2:

I don't have the emailed HH so I can't convert.

I have about 24 and pick up K/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/spade.gifQ/images/graemlins/club.gif6/images/graemlins/heart.gif and limp UTG+1 after 1 limper. 6 to the flop

Flop (1.45) - K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gifT/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I pot it and get two callers.

Turn (5.6) - 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I pot it, MP raises all in (same stack as me) 3rd player folds and I call.

I'm fine with this one Post flop but let me know if it is no good.

----------------------------------------------------------

Hand 3:

Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.25 BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

UTG+1 ($22.10)
UTG+2 ($18.37)
MP1 ($9.06)
Hero ($39.82)
MP3 ($18.17)
CO ($25)
Button ($4.97)
SB ($29.25)
BB ($15.30)
UTG ($32.97)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $0.3</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2.1</font>, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $1.80.

Turn: ($5.45) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $5.2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to $10.4</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $21.05

As mentioned I think pre-flop might be a muck. Not sure on the turn here, but the check-min raise probably means he's got it since people are really likely to have Aces and are generally passive at these stakes correct? Any chance people at this level semi-bluff with the naked Ad with a low draw?

[Wintermute]

All these hands look OK to me. Hand 1, perfect. Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run. Hand 3, a little loose preflop, and you saw why postflop. But I don't automatically muck that hand (although in a full ring game, I rarely play it). Also on Hand 3 you might check behind on the turn.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
All these hands look OK to me. Hand 1, perfect. Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run. Hand 3, a little loose preflop, and you saw why postflop. But I don't automatically muck that hand (although in a full ring game, I rarely play it). Also on Hand 3 you might check behind on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool thanks.

In regards to hand 3, I did contemplate checking behind here but opted to follow up my flop aggression and charge a potential low draw they might have picked up.

If I checked instead I would call (or bet if checked to) on the river on any non low board. Can I call/bet if a low hit's, I suppose it's opponent specific but assume a typical player at the 25-100 levels?

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Can I call/bet if a low hit's, I suppose it's opponent specific but assume a typical player at the 25-100 levels?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would say yes to a call, maybe to a bet, against a general opponent. The decision on whether to bet comes down to how often will opponent fold a weak low vs. how often he'll checkraise w/ nuts.

[Cooker]

Hand one is perfectly played. It is a really great hand and getting all-in preflop is what I would hope for as well.

I will play most KK hands for a limp preflop in PL (not so much in limit). You have a fairly vulnerable nuts on the flop and turn, so I would definitely be betting. I wouldn't be surprised if the raiser on the turn has a nut low and nut flush draw. You should probably be the favorite so obviously call.

I probably wouldn't play hand 3 preflop very often. I think this is a great flop for you since there is no immediate low draw and you have a pretty strong draw for high. I would bet the flop hoping to win right there. I don't like getting flat called here since that look like a nut FD. I think check behind on the turn and call on the end would be more prudent, since you risk the same amount as bet/fold on the turn, but you can pick off dry ace bluffs and smaller flushes (I have come up against people that will draw at any flush and play aggressively when it hits) at showdown.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like getting flat called here since that look like a nut FD.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find at the $25 tables, a flat call by 90% of the players is ANY flush draw... not necessarily the nuts.

[DyessMan89]

Hand 1: Fine. Dont be amazingly excited, though, and dont be suprised to be out-drawn. Very few Omaha/8 hands are big favorites over others.
Hands 2 &amp; 3: Fold preflop. Hand 2 is borderline. I like playing hands that are powerful hands that can develop into even more powerful hands. (the nuts) Your K High flush wont be good too often ... and if you flop a straight or set with your KK/KQ combos you will have a very vunerable hand. (especially with NO LOW DRAW) Hand 3 is not even close. This is an awful call pre-flop. No way to develop into the nuts, and no low draw.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

A favorable flop? What would that be? The only good outs for high you have is to make trip K's, bascially, and often times that hand will be extremley vunerable. (not to mention you might only take 1/2 if a low is present) A typical "favorable" board for KKQ6 would be ...

K63 (63 suited, not your suit)

Now, you have no possiblity for low, and you have to dodge flush cards and straight cards in the process. Notice how A24T is ahead of you in this situation ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262584
pokenum -o8 kh kc qd 6s - as 2c 4c ts -- kd 6c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6c 3c Kd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Kc Qd Kh 148 510 310 0 0 0 0 0.401
As Ts 4c 2c 310 310 510 0 630 0 0 0.599

Having a hand without a low like KKQ6 is not not good, ESPECIALLY FROM EARLY POSITION. It might be worth a limp in LP or the blinds. Please stick to Omaha High.

[donger]

Those preflop equity calculations don't mean much in a dispute over actual EV. I agree that KKxx is profitable in PLO8.

Stranded big pairs DO suck in limit O8, though, for all the reasons you've cited.

[Cooker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

A favorable flop? What would that be? The only good outs for high you have is to make trip K's, bascially, and often times that hand will be extremley vunerable. (not to mention you might only take 1/2 if a low is present) A typical "favorable" board for KKQ6 would be ...

K63 (63 suited, not your suit)

Now, you have no possiblity for low, and you have to dodge flush cards and straight cards in the process. Notice how A24T is ahead of you in this situation ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262584
pokenum -o8 kh kc qd 6s - as 2c 4c ts -- kd 6c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6c 3c Kd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Kc Qd Kh 148 510 310 0 0 0 0 0.401
As Ts 4c 2c 310 310 510 0 630 0 0 0.599

Having a hand without a low like KKQ6 is not not good, ESPECIALLY FROM EARLY POSITION. It might be worth a limp in LP or the blinds. Please stick to Omaha High.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is thinking like this that makes the PLO8 so juicy for Wintermute and Ribbo. K63 with a flush draw is one of the worst flops where you would play on with your Kings, but you give it as a typical "favorable" flop. And even against a hand that hits this flop pretty hard (no reason to expect someone to have a hand with a low draw, flush draw, and straight draw every time you see this flop) you are still only a 3 to 2 dog on the flop and will become a nice favorite on a blank turn where you can push really hard. You are supporting your claim that not playing KKxx is no good by cooking the stats.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

A favorable flop? What would that be? The only good outs for high you have is to make trip K's, bascially, and often times that hand will be extremley vunerable. (not to mention you might only take 1/2 if a low is present) A typical "favorable" board for KKQ6 would be ...

K63 (63 suited, not your suit)

Now, you have no possiblity for low, and you have to dodge flush cards and straight cards in the process. Notice how A24T is ahead of you in this situation ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262584
pokenum -o8 kh kc qd 6s - as 2c 4c ts -- kd 6c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6c 3c Kd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Kc Qd Kh 148 510 310 0 0 0 0 0.401
As Ts 4c 2c 310 310 510 0 630 0 0 0.599

Having a hand without a low like KKQ6 is not not good, ESPECIALLY FROM EARLY POSITION. It might be worth a limp in LP or the blinds. Please stick to Omaha High.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is thinking like this that makes the PLO8 so juicy for Wintermute and Ribbo. K63 with a flush draw is one of the worst flops where you would play on with your Kings, but you give it as a typical "favorable" flop. And even against a hand that hits this flop pretty hard (no reason to expect someone to have a hand with a low draw, flush draw, and straight draw every time you see this flop) you are still only a 3 to 2 dog on the flop and will become a nice favorite on a blank turn where you can push really hard. You are supporting your claim that not playing KKxx is no good by cooking the stats.

[/ QUOTE ]

K63 is one of the worst flops for KKxx? Then what classifys as an average or good flop? KKK?

You keep burning chips waiting for your dream flop, bud.

[Cooker]

Obviously your reading comprehension skills are lacking so I will try one more time. I said it was one of the worst flops where you will have to play on since you put every draw possible on the board (flush, straight, low) and even still you are only a slight dog to the hand that has every possible draw against you. Any decent player should be able to make +EV decisions on this flop and on the turn and it is really only an OK flop for your hand. I think your mindset is geared too much toward limit to recognize the hugely favorable implied odds situations that can come up on later streets when the bets will be much bigger. You will have odds to call the flop (which you will probably bet anyway) and if the turn blanks you will likely be able to get most of the money in as a nice favorite. KKxx is easy to play post flop which should make it nicely profitable if you can get in cheap.

[Wintermute]

I'm sorry DMan, but you are wrong. KKxx is playable, and it wins big. There are PTO stat threads around that bear this data, but I am too lazy to find one. The trick on flops like the one you came up with is to play them correctly.

[emptyshell]

Thanks for the advice, but I think I'll keep taking the 0.5 BB/Hand that PT says KKxx gives me.

[gergery]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

What isn't right is that you are confusing twodimes equity with how the hands will play out in a real game.

In a real game 4567 will never be the nuts. so the times it actually is ahead it will not make much money and the times it's behind it will lose money.

whereas KK can pot the flop and generally have a good idea of where it is on the turn.

This is actually a classic example of why twodimes is a valuable learning tool but not to be used as a decision God.

I agree with Cooker and 'mute.
-g