Question about making ethical decisions

[jakethebake]

I was thinking about this last night when I couldn't sleep. In making ethical or moral decisions, are you a “black & white” kind of person or a “shades of gray” kind of person? Why? In making ethical decisions, do you have a firm set of stated moral beliefs that you consciously work from, or do you wing it depending on the situation and just what seems right given the circumstances? Why?

I tend to be a very black & white kind of person and have a set of established morals that are my own that I follow.

[Shajen]

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I was thinking about this last night when I couldn't sleep. In making ethical or moral decisions, are you a “black & white” kind of person or a “shades of gray” kind of person? Why? In making ethical decisions, do you have a firm set of stated moral beliefs that you consciously work from, or do you wing it depending on the situation and just what seems right given the circumstances? Why?

I tend to be a very black & white kind of person and have a set of established morals that are my own that I follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty black and white. I'm a raging liberal though, so that might seem weird to some.

I have a relatively rigid set of "guidelines" (more like life experiences, opinions) that I follow. I do try to take into consideration all aspects of a certain idea or concept, but for the most part, I ain't changing [censored]. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[asofel]

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I was thinking about this last night when I couldn't sleep. In making ethical or moral decisions, are you a “black & white” kind of person or a “shades of gray” kind of person? Why? In making ethical decisions, do you have a firm set of stated moral beliefs that you consciously work from, or do you wing it depending on the situation and just what seems right given the circumstances? Why?

I tend to be a very black & white kind of person and have a set of established morals that are my own that I follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm easily a shades of grey person who follows what seems right and just. I think there are plenty of situations in life which to me feel like they have both correct and incorrect elements to them. Typical questions like "Would you go back and kill Hitler" and so on aren't black and white for me. Perhaps its more that I like to argue and will do so for both sides. Perhaps I don't like being wrong and by trying to argue and see both sides I prevent myself from any obvious wrong choice.

I do think there are things that are black and white, but these are often so obvious that they require little debate. I think its hard to be black and white as situations in life are usually not that easy.

For those who are, give me a couple examples and let me see what you mean. Are you talking about typical issues like the death penalty, abortion etc? I do find it interesting jake about your normal black/white views, but that you struggle with abortion. I think its a great example where its hard to be black and white...

[JihadOnTheRiver]

This really belongs in philosophy. I'll assume you have a background in philosophy, and if so you probably recognize this as one of the most important arguments to be had. If you trace the history of the major philosophers, they can be divided up rather well by identifying their answer to this question.

This question, if brought up in a cultured environment, will be the base for a pretty wide range of answers, and a pretty good discussion. Politics can be divided this way as well.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

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I'm a raging liberal though

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I love it when liberals admit to this. I don't know why.

[Olof]

I think that if you have strong principles and apply them in a rational manner, virtually all decisions should be completely black and white. That being said, there are a few things such as animal/retard/primitive tribe rights, whether the death penalty should be applied (it's obviously right in principle), abortion etc. that I'm having a hard time deciding upon.

I also think this thread would suit better in SMP.

[Warik]

I am perfectly capable of assessing a situation and knowing with full certainty what the "correct" ethical decision.

Then my feelings get involved and everything gets screwed up.

blah

[jakethebake]

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I also think this thread would suit better in SMP.

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I think you're right. But I wanted to hear what people here thought, not get a six page essay from David.

[Shajen]

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I'm a raging liberal though

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I love it when liberals admit to this. I don't know why.

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I added that to the post to make a point, even though my political stance is liberal, when it comes to ethics I'm pretty black and white. The two don't often go together, I've found.

(I'm not a democrat, if that's where you were going with that comment)

[Sephus]

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I was thinking about this last night when I couldn't sleep. In making ethical or moral decisions, are you a “black & white” kind of person or a “shades of gray” kind of person? Why? In making ethical decisions, do you have a firm set of stated moral beliefs that you consciously work from, or do you wing it depending on the situation and just what seems right given the circumstances? Why?

I tend to be a very black & white kind of person and have a set of established morals that are my own that I follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

some things are black and white and some are shades of gray. and some things are more black and white than others.

...i guess this makes me a shades of gray?

[jackdaniels]

Black and white.

The only time I deviate from the black and white scenerio is when the decision isn't important enough for me to identify it's core issue (to which I would apply my black adn white morality). For example, when deciding if I should download music from the web I initially (during the Napster days) did so immediately, without considering the moral/ethical implications. Once I decided to give it some thought, I realized this was an ehtical no-no and stopped downloading music.

I think that most people, given enough time to think through a particular subject, would find which side of the moral divide (black or white) something falls into. The problem is that most people don't stop and give issues much thought before acting (just like I did with Napster).

my initial reaction is shades of grey. I pretty much wing it depending on what seems right at the time. It seems like I can always rationalize and make excuses for questionable behavior (I don't necessarily mean my own) because I try to put myself in other people's shoes.

I think this is situation dependant. For example if you're talking about child neglect or elderly neglect then I am a black and white person. But if you're talking about moral dilemmas like infidelity or stretching the truth on a job application I'm more of a shades of grey person.

Give us some examples and maybe it will become more clear Jake.

[jakethebake]

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Give us some examples and maybe it will become more clear Jake.

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I'm talking generalities, not specifics. I don't think examples are necessary to answer this.

[Bluffoon]

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I was thinking about this last night when I couldn't sleep. In making ethical or moral decisions, are you a “black & white” kind of person or a “shades of gray” kind of person? Why? In making ethical decisions, do you have a firm set of stated moral beliefs that you consciously work from, or do you wing it depending on the situation and just what seems right given the circumstances? Why?

I tend to be a very black & white kind of person and have a set of established morals that are my own that I follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be black and white but now I try to be more open minded.

One of my favorite sayings is... "The older I get the stupider I get - When I was eighteen I knew everything and now I dont know [censored]."

[Aloysius]

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Black and white.

The only time I deviate from the black and white scenerio is when the decision isn't important enough for me to identify it's core issue (to which I would apply my black adn white morality). For example, when deciding if I should download music from the web I initially (during the Napster days) did so immediately, without considering the moral/ethical implications. Once I decided to give it some thought, I realized this was an ehtical no-no and stopped downloading music.

I think that most people, given enough time to think through a particular subject, would find which side of the moral divide (black or white) something falls into. The problem is that most people don't stop and give issues much thought before acting (just like I did with Napster).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity - why do you find it unethical to use free MP3 download services? I've also thought about the issue, and feel OK downloading stuff. Reasoning is that a majority of what I download is for personal consumption. Industry research on the topic has, for the most part, supported the claim that exposure to a wider range of music spurs, and does not diminish, music sales. I fall into this category for the most part. And the individual artists whose tracks I download that do not share in licensing $ from my consumption actually increase the % chance of getting my $ (meaning they never would have seen a cent from me, but after I download their track, who knows, I may actually buy their album).

To the question at hand - Black and White.

I think, to some degree, being more "relativist" or "absolute" is a function of age. I think it's smart to remain a skeptic and bake in some shades of grey (as there are always exceptions to the rule).

However, as I've gotten older, I've found the that being relativist is really just a front for being wishy-washy. People want as many outs as possible so that they don't have to commit and take a side. Weak. This line seems especially embedded in liberal framework (I am liberal).

[jackdaniels]

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Give us some examples and maybe it will become more clear Jake.

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I'm talking generalities, not specifics. I don't think examples are necessary to answer this.

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I agree with this. Assuming one knows all the facts, Why would ones moral opinion on a subject change depending on the specifics of the issue at hand? Is this the "a poor man steals a loaf of bread to feed his family - should he be punished or not?" kind of scenerio?

Applying the same moral standards to all situations is the hallmark of having moral standards in the first place. If you apply them un-evenly,, you don't have any standards, just a loose set of guidelines you sometimes choose to follow and other times - don't; in essence, deciding each issue based on the specific circumstance, rather than based on a code of ethics you have chosen to follow through life.

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking about this last night when I couldn't sleep. In making ethical or moral decisions, are you a “black & white” kind of person or a “shades of gray” kind of person? Why? In making ethical decisions, do you have a firm set of stated moral beliefs that you consciously work from, or do you wing it depending on the situation and just what seems right given the circumstances? Why?

I tend to be a very black & white kind of person and have a set of established morals that are my own that I follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be black and white but now I try to be more open minded.

One of my favorite sayings is... "The older I get the stupider I get - When I was eighteen I knew everything and now I dont know [censored]."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm referring to making my own ethical decisions, not how I react to others necessarily. I find that the few issues where I have trouble coming to an absolute decision are very frustrating. If I were a shades of gray person, I would be constatly frustrated.

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Are you talking about typical issues like the death penalty, abortion etc? I do find it interesting jake about your normal black/white views, but that you struggle with abortion. I think its a great example where its hard to be black and white...

[/ QUOTE ]if the principle reason(s) abortion, death penalty, etc. make those actions unethical, how do circumstances change those priciples? i'm going to have to say i'm pretty black and white with that kind of thing

[DMBFan23]

shades of grey, since I know that so many of my opinions and beliefs are shaped by just what I've gone through

[jakethebake]

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Are you talking about typical issues like the death penalty, abortion etc? I do find it interesting jake about your normal black/white views, but that you struggle with abortion. I think its a great example where its hard to be black and white...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I am black & white in the way I go about thinking about the abortion issue. I just haven't been able to satisfy myself with either decision.

[Bluffoon]

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[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking about this last night when I couldn't sleep. In making ethical or moral decisions, are you a “black & white” kind of person or a “shades of gray” kind of person? Why? In making ethical decisions, do you have a firm set of stated moral beliefs that you consciously work from, or do you wing it depending on the situation and just what seems right given the circumstances? Why?

I tend to be a very black & white kind of person and have a set of established morals that are my own that I follow.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be black and white but now I try to be more open minded.

One of my favorite sayings is... "The older I get the stupider I get - When I was eighteen I knew everything and now I dont know [censored]."

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm referring to making my own ethical decisions, not how I react to others necessarily. I find that the few issues where I have trouble coming to an absolute decision are very frustrating. If I were a shades of gray person, I would be constatly frustrated.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your question. For example I used to be very strongly pro-choice. I am still pro-choice but I see a lot of valid points on the right to life side.

[jakethebake]

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shades of grey, since I know that so many of my opinions and beliefs are shaped by just what I've gone through

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I find this very interesting as well because I don't think experiences should change my beliefs about what is right or wrong. All it does is give examples and experiences to frame within my moral system.

[ZeeJustin]

Shades of gay and it's not close.

[jakethebake]

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Shades of gay and it's not close.

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This was hilarious.

I'm pretty black and white.
But, I don't think my ideas of right and wrong are the same as everyone elses.

[DMBFan23]

for example, the whole abortion thing. I would think that if there were a girl who got pregnant at a young age and the pregnancy threatened her life of the mother might make someone more inclined to support abortion. We can think about those sides of the story and consider them when we're thinking about morality and all that, but our experiences along those lines are gonna weigh more powerfully IMO. one could also use the morality of something like welfare programs as an example, where being on one side of it or another would distort your views.

[asofel]

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shades of grey, since I know that so many of my opinions and beliefs are shaped by just what I've gone through

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I find this very interesting as well because I don't think experiences should change my beliefs about what is right or wrong. All it does is give examples and experiences to frame within my moral system.

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so how and when did you create your moral system? What was it based on and influeced on? At birth you had a perfect moral system that couldn't change given experience?


Is it ok to steal?

Is it immoral? Unethical?

If your family was starving and you walked by a store that happened to have a big loaf of bread temporarily sitting on a tray outside, would you take it?


I could continue to give contrived and specific examples, but I think before a discussion of this really needs to have firmly established and agreed upon definition of things like ethics and morality, and that's a whole other thread....

[asofel]

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Are you talking about typical issues like the death penalty, abortion etc? I do find it interesting jake about your normal black/white views, but that you struggle with abortion. I think its a great example where its hard to be black and white...

[/ QUOTE ]

if the principle reason(s) abortion, death penalty, etc. make those actions unethical, how do circumstances change those priciples? i'm going to have to say i'm pretty black and white with that kind of thing

[/ QUOTE ]

if the principal reasons behind them make them unethical?

i think the gray areas arise when there's something that people agree is wrong (stealing, killing, etc) but that such actions can be justified at times.

For example I'd have no problem stealing medicine that I had no other possible way of obtaining if that would save a family members life. I also think that there are situations where taking of a life is necessary. If I have a gun and have a chance at shooting someone who is about to take an axe to my brother, I won't think twice.

So maybe that means that I think taking of a life in saving another is ok? Is that unethical? Immoral?

I think the issue is that so often the absolute truths and ideas beyond morality and ethics end up meeting the reality of life. In a utopian system many things would work that would not work in life.

I'm far from a warmonger, but I think its foolish when people say war is never justified.

I think the origins of what is moral and ethical or not are important in this discussion. For some its societal, for others its religious. One isn't necessarily right or wrong (in my opinion, of course others will disagree) but in the end it makes it hard to prove or disprove one being correct or not, both what is and what isn't, and whether "black and white" is right, or whether "shades of gray" is ok. Interesting discussion though.

[Manque]

I'm certainly no expert on philosophy, but I wonder if the divide between black and white vs. shades of grey. is based on whether your philosophy tends towards utilitarism or natural law.

[krimson]

Shades of gray, even murder can be justified imo.

[jedi]

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Shades of gray, even murder can be justified imo.

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I don't think murder can ever be justified. Killing (which is different from murder) can.

For me, it's mostly black and white, but when people ask a question expecting a black and white answer from me, it's sometimes like poker: "It depends." For example, is killing wrong? Well, usually it is, but if some maniac is about to kill your mother, I have problems killing that son of a bitch. I think that's black and white, though people might say it's a shade of grey because I had to qualify the example.

Eh, what do I know. This is why I stay out of the SMP forum.