Common situation [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Robb

10-05-2005, 10:36 AM

What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

10-05-2005, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
A flop raise looks right to me, the pot is big and forcing out a better jack is worth it, if the raiser has KQ,AQ, or AK, your flop raise still is worth it since if you hit your jack on the turn you are less likely to get rivered if the raiser folds the flop.

ihardlyknowher

10-05-2005, 12:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

elindauer

10-05-2005, 12:19 PM

Hi Robb,

Tough decision. First, I think you are correct to at least consider raising and that this is a case where you have a legitimate argument for trying to clean up outs. There are reasonable hands that could be out (QJ, KJ, AJ), and they may fold. Even better, you don't lose much on your raise, as you have value if they call, but pick up position and perhaps a free card if they don't.

Well, I started that paragraph undecided, but now that I've had more time to think, I like a raise. The downside is that you are shutting out the field with a strong draw to the nuts. The upside of winning with 1 pair is worth it though, I think.

Good luck.
Eric

DeeJ

10-05-2005, 12:25 PM

I lay real low here and call. If you hit your oesd you have the nuts and maybe can get someone else raising the pot up when you have the nuts eg if the Q or 7 hits. Keep them in, don't shut them out. You only have Jack high at the moment.

I guess this is a 'traditional' response /images/graemlins/grin.gif

10-05-2005, 12:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lay real low here and call. If you hit your oesd you have the nuts and maybe can get someone else raising the pot up when you have the nuts eg if the Q or 7 hits. Keep them in, don't shut them out. You only have Jack high at the moment.

I guess this is a 'traditional' response /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I would agree with this response if the pot wasnt so large, forcing a better jack to fold is worth raising in my opinion, plus this pot is big enough that many people will call the heros raise anyways and if 3 or more opponents still see the turn the hero is making money off this raise. And like i said in my original post, forcing AK,AQ,KQ to fold still has some value in the large pot also.

Robb

10-05-2005, 12:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I lay real low here and call. If you hit your oesd you have the nuts and maybe can get someone else raising the pot up when you have the nuts eg if the Q or 7 hits. Keep them in, don't shut them out. You only have Jack high at the moment.

I guess this is a 'traditional' response /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I usually do as well. This just seemed like the right spot for a raise. Though it sounds weird to say: I'm wondering if it doesn't matter what I do (as long as I don't fold) because it really depends on my opponents cards...which are completely unknown because of the preflop action. You have: "It's a big pot do all you can to win. Raise and clean up your outs". But you also have: "Lots of players, keep as many in since you have draw equity." If Button has AJ and won't call two cold I think a raise may be good. If he has an overpair it's bad because he 3 bets which loses all my customers.

Robb

10-05-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much for the reasons Westley and elindauer stated.

mc1023

10-05-2005, 12:47 PM

what are your plans if everyone folds around to UTG+1 who calls and the turn is a blank?

you have J high in a large pot and UTG+1 definently won't be folding, are you simply going to check the turn and either hope to hit the river or fold?

I would call here simply for the fact that you are possibly clearing your outs of hitting a JACK which is an additional 0-3 outs. UTG+1 might have a hand like JT or JQ which makes it even more of a disgusting spot. Not to mention the fact that Button might actually have a real hand and 3bet you clearing the field with you being OOP against the aggressor.

Robb

10-05-2005, 01:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
what are your plans if everyone folds around to UTG+1 who calls and the turn is a blank?

you have J high in a large pot and UTG+1 definently won't be folding, are you simply going to check the turn and either hope to hit the river or fold?

I would call here simply for the fact that you are possibly clearing your outs of hitting a JACK which is an additional 0-3 outs. UTG+1 might have a hand like JT or JQ which makes it even more of a disgusting spot. Not to mention the fact that Button might actually have a real hand and 3bet you clearing the field with you being OOP against the aggressor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well my thinking wasn't J high was going to be good if showdown...I was raising to clear up outs since it's a big pot. You may be right that calling here is correct. Like I said in another reply: I think it depends on my opponents cards.

You mention QJ. I think QJ and 97 are very interesting hands for my opponent to have because if I keep on the gas I probably win the pot unimproved. So in that sense I don't mind if my opponent has QJ AND it's HU because I only have to dodge a jack: my opponent won't call a river bet UI.

But I didn't think of that at the time....so I would have checked the turn if I didn't improve. I think it's pretty likely opponent is trying to protect a 10.

flawless_victory

10-05-2005, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]the pot is already huge and hes trying to win it. who knows if the field will collapse and youll win by firing away, or more likely win w/ one pair.
automatic raise for me.

stoxtrader

10-05-2005, 02:51 PM

I think if you actually tried to value "cleaning up your outs" and "winning by firing on every street" vs drawing cheaply and getting extra bets if you hit you would find its not close and the correct play is to call.

I honestly dont know for sure, and the calculation is certainly difficult, but "cleaning up" a dubious 3 outer in the pot I think would be worthwhile if the pot was maybe 20-25 SB or so when you account for ooportunity cost.

elindauer

10-05-2005, 03:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you actually tried to value "cleaning up your outs" and "winning by firing on every street" vs drawing cheaply and getting extra bets if you hit you would find its not close and the correct play is to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you may be ignoring that, should his attempt to isolate fail, a flop raise will lose very little or even be for value.

I see only good things when he raises. He gets it heads up and improves his odds of winning unimproved / with 1 pair, OR he gets a call or two and builds a pot with a nice draw.

I concede that my first instinct was that it was close though, maybe I'm just talking myself into it.

good luck.
eric

ihardlyknowher

10-05-2005, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What determines when you should raise to clean up your outs and when you should call to keep others in? I just kind of go by feel: draw strength, the drawed pair strength, how likely my raise is to knock out players, the board obviously, etc. Thoughts on flop raise?

Both EP players seemed loose from the little I watched the game... I thought about waiting until the blinds rolled around but a player just left and I didn't want EP's to leave next hand on their blinds if another player got up...so I posted in the Hijack. Notes on CO poster: LA preflop, tricky post. Nothing on other players.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. Hero posts a blind of $30. CO posts a blind of $30.
2 ep limpers, Button raises, BB calls, the rest call.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif (7 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds and I raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have an OESD on a rainbow flop, and hand with pretty good implied odds, with 7 players in and you are trying to shut out the field? I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]the pot is already huge and hes trying to win it. who knows if the field will collapse and youll win by firing away, or more likely win w/ one pair.
automatic raise for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Huge" is a bit of an overstatement. Also, IF your play works, you are adding at most 2-3 outs to your hand. This adds about 10% to your chances to win (value based on the current "huge" pot size = 0.7BB), but it is costing you an extra 0.5 BB right now to try it, with no guarantees it will work.

Ulysses

10-05-2005, 03:47 PM

I like a call because by calling you allow guys w/ reverse implied odds to stay in. I am pretty sure that is worth more than cleaning up your pair outs in this specific situation. This is interesting enough that I might actually do a little math later, but my gut tells me calling is the way to go here.

Robb

10-05-2005, 03:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you actually tried to value "cleaning up your outs" and "winning by firing on every street" vs drawing cheaply and getting extra bets if you hit you would find its not close and the correct play is to call.

I honestly dont know for sure, and the calculation is certainly difficult, but "cleaning up" a dubious 3 outer in the pot I think would be worthwhile if the pot was maybe 20-25 SB or so when you account for ooportunity cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

But you have an inverse relationship between pot size and calling frequency. I think it makes less sense in a 25 BB pot to raise to clean up your outs because no one is folding.

In my hand, there's also a small chance catching a nine will beat the flop bettor.

mc1023

10-05-2005, 03:52 PM

if the pot was 20-25 SB I think you can clearly raise for value since no one will likely fold, but in this case I really think your not getting a fold out of him and you are most likely in fact drawing just to a OESD that will not win unimproved.

Robb

10-05-2005, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
if the pot was 20-25 SB I think you can clearly raise for value since no one will likely fold, but in this case I really think your not getting a fold out of him and you are most likely in fact drawing just to a OESD that will not win unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't implying you can't raise for value in a 20-25 BB pot.

In this hand, just because he probably won't fold a pair doesn't necessarily mean it's not right to raise.

Robb

10-05-2005, 06:49 PM

Someone won.

obi---one

10-05-2005, 08:10 PM

would you rather be heads up and pay three bets on the flop, or pay one bet and have 5 people on the flop? This looks like a call and I don't think it is very close.

SA125

10-06-2005, 12:50 AM

I think it being raised pf gives you more incentive to do it and makes it the right play.

flawless_victory

10-06-2005, 12:56 AM

youre acting like there is zero chance to win the pot without a showdown.
im saying raise and pound to win it, or at least knock ppl out who may have made something when you make a pair... i wouldnt raise to knock out someone w/ a bigger J and "clean" 2outs... that wouldnt be worth much...
i think raising or calling depends alot on game conditions so i certainly shouldnt have said this was "automatic"... clearly it is not.

ihardlyknowher

10-06-2005, 02:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
youre acting like there is zero chance to win the pot without a showdown.
im saying raise and pound to win it, or at least knock ppl out who may have made something when you make a pair... i wouldnt raise to knock out someone w/ a bigger J and "clean" 2outs... that wouldnt be worth much...
i think raising or calling depends alot on game conditions so i certainly shouldnt have said this was "automatic"... clearly it is not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trying to bully 6 people out of a huge spot seems like an -EV play to me.

10-06-2005, 03:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
would you rather be heads up and pay three bets on the flop, or pay one bet and have 5 people on the flop? This looks like a call and I don't think it is very close.

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement is simply dead wrong, If a raise by the hero will increase the heros chances of winning this large pot by even a few percentage points than a raise is the right play. In this situation the hero should raise the flop, if he gets 3 bet so what, thats the risk the hero must take. You must understand that winning a large pot 36% of the time is much better than winning a large pot 32% of the time. These numbers are made up, but you get my point.

Robb

10-06-2005, 11:27 AM

Any other opinions?

vmacosta

10-06-2005, 11:38 AM

I like a raise. Firing at a pot with a big draw can never be too wrong and it will help define your opponents' hands. Furthermore, it would suck to let the guy with a 3 in there, have him make trips on the turn and end up putting in 2-3 BB to draw. Same goes if J or 9 hits, somebody hits their gutshot and you're stuck paying a bunch of big bets to draw to a hand that will no longer make the nuts. Plus, its fun and it partially disguises your hand since people will be more apt to think you just have top pair.

stoxtrader

10-06-2005, 12:16 PM

nobody advocating a raise has swayed me. I still think a call is clearly correct.

stoxtrader

10-06-2005, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
would you rather be heads up and pay three bets on the flop, or pay one bet and have 5 people on the flop? This looks like a call and I don't think it is very close.

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement is simply dead wrong, If a raise by the hero will increase the heros chances of winning this large pot by even a few percentage points than a raise is the right play. In this situation the hero should raise the flop, if he gets 3 bet so what, thats the risk the hero must take. You must understand that winning a large pot 36% of the time is much better than winning a large pot 32% of the time. These numbers are made up, but you get my point.

[/ QUOTE ]

my opinion is that obi's original statement is correct, and the second quote is incorrect. I don't think it's close, but it does depend on the proclivity of your opponents to call 2 cold.