Playing for a living (long)

[Gomez22]

Yesterday, I lost my job due to a conflict of interests (another long story) in a family run business of which I was a shareholder and VP of the Corp.

That being said, it's a given that my mind has been racing for the last 24 hours. Given the situation, I think there is a possibility (20%) that I may be asked to come back, but there will be some stern negotiations if that is the case. Now for the meat of this post.

I've been playing for 3 years, starting in limit ring, moving to NL, back to limit, and in the past fedw months to SNGs, where I have had my greatest success. I haven't played a high volume, as my work used to take up alot of my time. I have previously played 5, 6, 10, 15, & 20 SNGs, and my stats for each are as follows (I know about small sample sizes, etc. but I want to post all pertinent information):

$5/$6 SNGS: 169 played; 31.33% ROI
$10 SNGS: 95 played; 25.55% ROI
$15 SNGS: 48 played; 16.34% ROI
$20 SNGS: 93 played; 21.21% ROI

As close as I can figure, over 405 SNGs at various levels, I'm +23.42% ROI.

I don't consider myself a great player, but not a bad one either, maybe more like middle of the road/average.

I would like opinions and thoughts of players that play for a living, and are not just college students, but those that actually support a family, own a home, etc. about my situation.

Our monthly "nut" is about $3K (a little high, but better to be high than low) and my wife brings home about $1K/month. We currently have about 3 months worth of expenses saved, and my poker BR is $1K (It was much higher, but she's going back to school, and we just bought new mattresses, so that hit the BR by about $3K for both).

If I 4-table the $10's until I get to around $1500, and move back to the $20's, I figure it's going to take about 790 SNGs/month to reach that goal (maybe 26/day... not too difficult, but more than I have played in any one day before). If I could maintain 20% at the 20's, that would come out to 454/month, or 15/day.

Basically, I would like some honest opinions about playing SNGs for a living from those that do, and more importantly, what kinds of things should I be thinking about in regards to playing for a living (if that is indeed what I end up doing).

I don't think I am going to make any concrete decisions about what exactly I am going to do for another week or so, but I am trying to plan some things out now so that my decision making process is easier when the time comes. I may look for another job immediately, I may try playing for a few months, I'm just not real sure right now, and this feeling is one I am totally unfamiliar with.

I also have a few questions for those that play for a living:

1. How do you go about withdraws? Do you make a set amount each month, biweekly? Do you just take a % of your winnings out? I had thought to make 2 WDs/month, around the middle and end of roughly what I and my wife need to pay bills and survive.

2. Are you generally much tighter with BR management? I had previously played SNGs with a 50 buy-in BR, but if I DO end up doing this for a living, I think I might want to move to 75 or maybe even 100.

3. Were you "forced" into this decision or was it choice? How long ahve you been doing it? Are you happy with your decision?

4. What kind (if any) tax problems am I looking at? (I plan to report everything, but is there anything specific I need to do if I choose this path?)

Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated, serious replies only, please...


Thanks alot,
'Mez

[johnnybeef]

Given your monthly nut, there is no way you will be able to support your family on your poker skill unless you can beat the 55s at the very least. Considering that you said you are very middle of the road, this really isnt an option for you.

[lorinda]

As always I'm really against making a reply that could lead to someone taking the "wrong" (for them) life decision.

I think you should treat a month as if it only has 24 days in it when doing the math, to allow for burnout and other related poker afflictions. You also need to add 500 to your nut because most people go crazy if they don't actually increase their bankroll.

For others that may reply, I know that Gomez is at least a thinking player. I don't really know his skill level, but he's certainly not the standard "I want to play poker, I'm da best" type person we get on here from time to time.

If I had to guess, I'd say you should try for a month and if it's not for you then use your 2-3 months savings to go find a job. That would all seem logical.

Lori

[lorinda]

[ QUOTE ]
1. How do you go about withdraws? Do you make a set amount each month, biweekly? Do you just take a % of your winnings out? I had thought to make 2 WDs/month, around the middle and end of roughly what I and my wife need to pay bills and survive.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sad truth is that these schemes tend not to work.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm willing to guess the most common answer is "You withdraw it when you have got it"

Lori

[Mr_J]

"on your poker skill unless you can beat the 55s at the very least."

Are you saying that it's hard to make 2-3k a month at the 22s or 33s??

To OP, you probally want a larger sample. Your results are promising so far, but you don't really know what to expect ROI wise. You don't need anything even close to $1500 for the $22s. Move up now (assuming you have $500+) and don't drop down unless you fall to $330.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. How do you go about withdraws? Do you make a set amount each month, biweekly? Do you just take a % of your winnings out? I had thought to make 2 WDs/month, around the middle and end of roughly what I and my wife need to pay bills and survive.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sad truth is that these schemes tend not to work.
I can't speak for everyone, but I'm willing to guess the most common answer is "You withdraw it when you have got it"

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly. I might withdraw 5 times one month and then not at all for two. I couldnt imagine doing this for a living. I shouldnt even be on this thread.

[Nicholasp27]

i don't play for a living, but it seems like it's gonna be closer to a real estate agent than an office worker...some months you might make 2-3 months worth of bills...other months you might not make anything, or even lose some...so you should have a big enough br that you can take some out for bills if necessary and/or have enough savings to get you through those months...and the months you make 5k, keep the extra k in the bank instead of spending it on trips, etc so u can easily take the downswing that may hit the following month

[MegaBet]

I withdraw my winnings at the end of the month and return my bankroll to what it was at the start of the month. This is my monthly "salary".

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I withdraw my winnings at the end of the month and return my bankroll to what it was at the start of the month. This is my monthly "salary".

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't feel the need to grow your BR? What BI do you play?

[Gomez22]

Thanks for the kind words, Lori.

I am merely here looking for opinions from those that are more experienced and already do this for a type of living, and am trying to weigh all my options as carefully as possible for the time being.

I have never attempted to play the 33's or higher, as before, I only played poker to be able to get another 200-400/month for "fun money".

I also don't like to overstate any of my playing abilities, and would rather understate them, if anything. I realize that it is a very difficult road to walk (playing for a living) and will be something that I am not entirely accustomed to. In some ways, it seems like something I can try, but in others, it is very scary.

[bones]

It's more difficult than you can imagine.

My advice is this: Really dedicate yourself to it for an entire month. Treat it like your career. If after a month, you still have the stomach for it, try it again for another month.

Repeat until you can decide if you have a passion for this or it makes you want to vomit.

[Mr_J]

"So you don't feel the need to grow your BR? What BI do you play?"

Why? In sngs you quickly reach a point where there's just no point in having a larger BR, unless you plan on moving up soon.

[Gomez22]

[ QUOTE ]
Repeat until you can decide if you have a passion for this or it makes you want to vomit.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL... I want to vomit over the [censored] that cost me my job...

I have not been playing SNGs for a living yet, but I am working on that. I have been gambling as my primary income for 3 years now and it's not easy.

Even after I began to consider not having my "job" (I was an independent contractor), it was still another year or so before I went full time gambling. I had been a winning player since '96, matched my "job" income in '98, surpassed it in the years since. It was costing me too much money to stay at my job. But, I had to be properly set up, house paid, backed well enough to sustain a losing year. Yes, I said year. I had to have a large bankroll for my gambling (huge variance in what I was doing). And it happened that I had a year that I didn't make money. Perhaps not as likely with SNGs, but possible for me.

I worked like a dog to get there. I was always tired. My relationship fell apart.

When I went full-time, the hardest thing to adjust to was my narrow social circle. Even though I wasn't super close to the people I worked with, I missed them and my clients. It took me about a year to get over that. You also have to deal with the fact that what you're doing is a non-productive venture. For me, I was just churning money, waiting for the statistics to play themselves out. It can leave you with an empty feeling.

Things could change in my gambling world quickly, an opportunity that was good could be taken away. I had to adjust, to travel. Perhaps not an issue with SNGs.

It is not what it seems. It is boring. It is monotonous.

If it is something that you really want to do, go back to working to pay for your family's expenses. Play, study and learn poker. Do not remove your earnings for spending. Remove them and put them in a special account. Have double the bankroll that you think you need for the level at which you intend to play. Be sure that you've played at that level for the appropriate amount of games. In addition have at least 6 months living expenses covered. If you really want it, don't put yourself under the pressure of doing it because you've lost your job. Make it a goal and plan for it.

O.K., now the upside! I go where I want, when I want! I don't have to ask anyone for vacation time. If I get burned out, I don't work for however long I don't feel like working. These things can all be a disadvantage, too!!

Taxes, you have to keep good records, I haven't yet figured out how to approach the SNGs, but it should be pretty straightfoward.

Good luck!

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
"So you don't feel the need to grow your BR? What BI do you play?"

Why? In sngs you quickly reach a point where there's just no point in having a larger BR, unless you plan on moving up soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I meant. Wasnt sure if mega thought he has reached his pinnacle.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you saying that it's hard to make 2-3k a month at the 22s or 33s??

[/ QUOTE ]

well considering that almost 90% of the people that play them don't, id say yes. the op may have some game, but i have struggled at times doing this, and it can be stressful. i am 25, single, and have very little in the way of a monthly nut, but i still get stressed out. i could only imagine what it would be like if i had a family and mortgage.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
You withdraw it when you have got it

[/ QUOTE ]

[fnord_too]

I really only looked at the first couple of replies, but that Lorinda is pretty smart. I have a full time job and two childred (.5 and 2.5) and I can get in 500 a month if I don't get bored and play other games pretty easily (but I 8 table S&G's).

1. Like Lorinda said, withdraw it when you got it, though I take out at least 2K/month for my mortgage.

2. I don't play for a living, but I would want 100-200 buy ins for my bank roll if I did. If you give me win place and show percentages for party S&G's, and the level, I can run a Monte Carlo and give you statistics on max loss before positive for life, etc. I have the code written, it is trivial to do the runs.

3. N/A

4. Well, you will probably need to make quarterly payments to avoid any penalties. The taxes will be a bit higher than you expect if you are filing as a professional, since you won't have an employer to pay ~9% of your salary in taxes (1/2 SSN and medicare). Just get an accountant, it is not that big a deal.

Does your wife's job have benefits? Health care is always the biggest issue in my mind. If not, I would definitely advise looking for another job. If so, then I would say start searching for a good job, but set your standards high at least for a month while you figure out the viability of poker.

Assuming you have healthcare taken care of, here is how I would assess your financial situation.

Nut: 3k/month
Secured: 1K/month
So you need at least 2K/month to get by, but really add about 500 to that for savings (more is better of course, but you really need some extra padding).
Add about 500/month to growing your bankroll (again, growing it faster is better if you are capable of beating the bigger games for a larger hourly rate).

So you need to clear 3K/month before taxes. That really means you proably need to earn between 4500 and 5000 per month to be have any comfort. At the 22's, at a 20% ROI (you CANNOT average ROI over levels) that is over 1000 STT's a month (not figuring in any rakeback). At the 55's and 15% ROI, that's about 600/month.

I think you need to give serious consideration to adding more tables if you are going to try this. You cannot move up too fast, that is a recipe for disaster. 4 tabling, you could do 1000 / month, but that is a lot more of a grind than most jobs (and STT's get really friggin boring really fast, at least for me).

My numbers are all on the conservative side. (Do you have children? I thought I read that in the OP, but now I don't see it.)

If you are only going to 4 table, I would seriously consider NL ring games. I think you could work you BR up to where you could be playing 1/2 pretty quickly, and those games are not that hard to beat for $20/100 hands.

Also, 400 STT's is really not very many at all. 1000 at a given level, while still not that many, should give you a reasonable idea of what your real rate is.

[bones]

I don't want to discourage you, but realize that it takes a tremendous amount of mental toughness and discipline to do this for a living. It's why most people can't. I believe that anyone can make close the requisite amount of money to support themselves if they really dedicate themselves to poker. But it takes something else to be able to handle it mentally and emotionally.

Best wishes and learn to push

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"So you don't feel the need to grow your BR? What BI do you play?"

Why? In sngs you quickly reach a point where there's just no point in having a larger BR, unless you plan on moving up soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats what I meant. Wasnt sure if mega thought he has reached his pinnacle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of my income is at the $55s where I feel most comfortable. The last week of the month I may (and usually do) move up the the $109s as my bankroll has grown sufficiently. I have dabbled in the $215s and am a winning player there (given small sample size). I am making a lot more than I need to survive at the 55s/109s so I feel no need to be a 215 regular. Also, I'm not sure I'm mentally ready for the enormous swings at that level...yet.

[MegaBet]

Great great post Merrell Fan!

I'm a relative newcomer to doing this professionally, so I'm still in the "I'm loving having no boss" honeymoon right now. It's fantastic to hear about your experiences, ups and downs, just to get my head straight about the whole thing.

My biggest worry? I used to work for an investment bank and it's an area I could get back into tomorrow if I needed to. However, I'm concerned that in a few years time when the poker craze has died down, as most people have predicted, would the 5 years I took out (arbitrary figure) come back to haunt me? Can I write that from 2005-2010 I was a professional poker player, and still be able to get back into my old industry if/when I decide to settle down and be more "responsible", etc? I have a good bachelors degree and 7 years experience working in both London and New York.

Another benefit of doing this in the UK is not having to pay any taxes on my winnings and not having to have medical insurance. Would appreciate your thoughts, or the thoughts of others here.

[downtown]

Like any home business, it's better to prove that you can make the side income before it's what you depend on to live.

If I were in your situation, I would not be able to handle the stress when I hit a big downswing.

I plan on playing $55s/$109s full-time (by that I mean my only source of income while I finish my Masters) starting January '06 with a bankroll of $10K. I have multiple safety nets. My fiance, who will then be my wife makes way more than enough to cover all our expenses. I will have the option of getting student loans, should I need them. I'll have a great job waiting for me when I graduate. I think all of this will ultimately allow me to play to the best of my ability becauase I won't worry when I drop $2K or 20 buyins - it won't matter to me in the big picture. If I were in your spot, I don't see how I'd get through it.

I would seriously consider "working" a full time job in spending 40 hours a week finding a 9-5 job. I hope either way that it works out for you.

I'm a single male with no dependants that played poker professionally for 8 months. I basically lived in poverty. Some months i'd be up a few thousand then i'd withdraw to pay some bills, then get a bad run of cards and have to play the lower limits... Grind it out really hard to move up then have to withdraw again. I lived CHEAP

I am a video game designer that multitabled 4 games at once. I'd never recommend doing it as your sole source of income unless you have NO responsiblity... I had minimal responsibility and mentally its is just ugly.

If i had to do it again i'd have a part time job that covered the bills if i ate rice and beans and only washed my clothes in cold water.

Then i'd play poker 4 hours a day.

Going purely pro with what you have said in your post smells like a reciept for disaster.

Swings can last MONTHS i had a 4 week period where i broke even. THen i'd make like 2k in a day, then break even for a week. then make 500 in 2 hours... then lose 500 over 10 hours then make 1000 in an hour and then lose 500 in 15 minutes. THen you have nothing happen for 25 hours.

[MegaBet]

Just guessing, but do you play the $215s? Sounds suspiciously like it.

[FatTony21]

Since you have 3 months of savings, I'd say you should try to find a way to increase that to at least 6 months, and plan a budget based on 1 monthly withdraw of expenses. As you win (hopefully), replenish that money, then increase your bankroll. You're going to find the stress of a downswing overwhelming if you constantly have a monetary goal each month. It's much easier to focus on playing good poker when you have a good supply of available cash to cover expenses and emergencies.

Others may disagree, but I'd suggest working on playing more tables first, then moving up in a level. If you're on a monthly budget, this will help "smooth-out" the variance for you and your family. It's still there, of course, but that 1000 game break-even streak can be over in 2-3 weeks of 12 tabling 22s-55s as opposed to 3 months of 4 tabling the 215s.

One thing you need to check up on. I'm originally from Ohio, and as I recall, Ohio taxes gambling winnings, but does not allow you to deduct gambling losses against those winnings. Check with an Ohio tax professional before you take the plunge, as this could have severe negative consequences depending on how then interpret a "gambling session."

[beeyjay]

I am in college but I have been supporting myself for the past year and a half or so with poker so ill make a couple comments.

1. like i said im in college and knowing i have my parents there to bail me out if everything went absolutely wrong is a highly underated thing. i don't know if i could handle the swings without this.

2. I used to cash out only when I really needed the money which i now think is a bad idea. my roll would go from 3k to about 6k and since it was just numbers online i really didnt see much difference. Now I cash out 400 bucks a twice a week which is pretty equal to my expenses. Then at the end of the month I take rakeback and maybe a little more out and go shopping with it for whatever i want. I think this is kind of key, this allows me to feel like i'm making money. My bank account always has money for stuff I want to do and I never feel crunched by waiting for a withdrawal to process or thinking I work all the damn time and still don't have any money to play with. So i definitly think if you did do it you should cash out twice a month or on some set schedule for some set amount.

3. You will grow very sick of the game. I know there are others on here that have been playing longer than me and who play waaaayyy more hands than i do a week but even 8 tabling 15-20 hours a week you see soo many hands that it becomes a complete grind. I know that sounds cliche but its the truth.

4. I would def. keep at least 75 buyins if you're supporting people with this.

I don't know whatever you do good luck.

[Gomez22]

Thank you for the comments and in depth-ness of your reply....

I was in charge of payroll at my job, so I know the ins-n-outs of that, and usually, I did the quarterly tax reports myself, so I have familiarity with that aspect, as well.

In the back of my mind, I was anticipating needing somewhere in the neighborhood of at least $4K/month, considering taxes and all, and like I said in OP, $3K is a touch over what I anticipate ($500 over, give or take).

In the "real world", I think I may be able to do this to supplement our income a bit, but I think, in all honesty, that it would be safer for me to get a job. My wife works someplace where they offer medical, but the employees must pay for that. I had hospitalization at my possible former job, but no medical/dental.

If I'm rambling, I apologize, but this is unlike anything I've experienced before and I'm only 26 hours into it...... the next few weeks/months should be interesting to say the least if I don't get asked to come back (in which case, there would be terms that would need to be agreed to).

Once again, much appreciated,
'Mez

[JJKillian]

Just my 2 cents, to give you some more thought on the matter.

I currently consider myself semi-pro. Just my own definition. Basically someone that puts more time into poker than their current job.

I went full time back in July for 1 whooping whole week. That week decided to be my current worst downswing ever. And that was at the 109 lvl.

Couple things I learned about being a full time pro.

1. It will change your personal life. One of the post in this thread mentioned that briefly. I am just going to bring it to light even more. It will make you more stressed. Which in turn makes you deal with people differently. Which in turn will effect your game...so on and so forth. The mental fortatude required is insane. Gigabets post in the MTT FAQ sticky post is probably the best post I have ever read on here period. But it is mainly on that subject alone. Do not under estimate it.

2. 7.65% is what your current (x employeer) pays to social security for you. PLus medicare, un employement tax, etc. You will also pay another 7.65% as an employee (1099) when you "pay yourself".

3. No amt of money (well I am sure there is a lvl) will take the stress away. I had a major luxury when I decided to try it for a week. I currently make 2k a week after taxes. My job takes no more than 10 hours a week of my time. Have no car payments (2 cars) and a minimal mortgage. It still made me short in patience and consumed me. Poker was no longer fun, it was a grind.

Bottom line is. This was my experience. In the end I realized it wasn't worth it for my family. If that week would have been my best ever, I am sure I would have felt different. But that week would have happened eventually anyway.

When I see posts like this I normally pass by them. But you seem very level headed and planned out. Plus, like me, you have a family to consider. So just wanted to share my experiences with you.

One last thing. It took me months to get my confidence back. I was going to play in the main event this year, and didn't because that week screwed me up so bad. My game is just now (over the past month) getting back to where it was.

GL no matter what your decision.

JJ

[suited_ace]

OK, a few questions for you:

Can you live the next 2 months without making a cent from poker?

Were this results achieved 4-tabling?

The pressure of having to make at least $2k/month is something that can be very tough on you, specially in the beginning. I'd give myself at least 2 months to learn and understand SnGs well enough to start moving up. You want to be in the $55s ASAP. If $2k/month is your minimum, you need to be making way more than that in a "good month" so you can be prepared for the bad ones.

You have a decent BR for the $22s, but you don't have enough experience. Play at least 500 tournies at the $11s before moving up. 1000 tournies would be ideal, but if your results for the first 500 have been good enough, moving up is no big deal.

I like to play with a 50 BI BR, and have a way of rebuying myself back in if I ever go broke.

Consider the option of finding a mentor for your development as an SnG player. It will greatly accelerate your learning curve.

Well, that's it... Sorry for the random thoughts, I'm just waking up.

[Newt_Buggs]

Given that the games will get tougher and that you still have little experience this seems like a very bad plan.

[stupidsucker]

Dont forget taxes...

Based on the info I have read, you really should be careful. The added stress of playign for a living is an x factor that you wont know the weight of until you are burried.

You may want to pick up some form of steady income during your first 3 months. You should also plan on working a full day. 15/day isnt enough imo. Leaves variance to kill you when you have a losing month. 25ish/day 5 days a week is perfect imo.

[pooh74]

I like a quote from J. Harman that I saw in a New Yorker article a while back. She said she never really made a decision to go "pro", it just sorta happened over time. She was spending most of her time at the tables, working less or not at all, because she didnt need to, and when someone referred to her as a "pro" she kinds thought, "yeah, I guess I am".

Anecdotal, but not irrelevant. Although I think anyone who is a proven winner can put their mind to it and go for it, I think the best way is when it just happens on its own because you are doing too well NOT to play fulltime.

I would definitely overlap a real job with playing for AWHILE before even considering doing this as a "profession". Sorry to be Debbi downer.

[ebaudry]

In many fields, taking 5 years off to play poker professionally could be considered a blemish on your resume. In investment banking, I see it being either neutral or a benefit, depending on how well you answer the inevitable question regarding why you won't leave i.banking again since you did it in the past.

Check out "Liar's Poker" by Lewis.

[stupidsucker]

Ya know.... I became a pro when I got fired.
I was already playing poker semi-professionaly though. <font color="white"> huh, perhaps my drop in work ethic had something to do with that. </font>

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry to be Debbi downer.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol that tired sketch so does not deserve a reference.

[DrPhysic]

It is one of those questions that begs it's own answer: If you have to ask...

I cannot tell you from the perspective of a poker pro how roundly you have to beat the 33s, 55s, etc, and how confident you have to be in doing so, which I think is illusory as the confidence waxes and wanes with the variance for most.

I can tell you from a business perspective. I have been self employed for 20 years. In much your situation one day, I came home unemployed but with a marketable skill. I asked the wife how much money we had. Her answer amounted to 3 months worth. I told her that when half of it was gone I would go get a real job, and had some business cards printed. In industrial engineering, you have friends whom you can call on for some help in the business. A job to work on that they might have given to somebody else. A good referral. There are no friends at a poker table.

Most (well over 50%) of new small businesses go out of business between years 2 and 3. Most small businesses lose money for the first 5 years. I was lucky, and had some friends around. I made it.

Today, I have well over a year's br in the savings, not including the 401k. And that's real br counted from last year's checks. Writing a budget usually includes known continuing expenses. It usually forgets the emergencies, parties, wife's birthday dinner, school supplies, doctor bill, and the extra new tire. The real expenses.

You have to remember to take out (save money for) income taxes, property taxes, school taxes, retirement, and vacations in addition to cutting this month’s nut. And, oh by the way, in the USA you have been paying 6.2% of your income for social security and 1.45% for medicare. The other half was paid by your employer. Being self employed, now you get to pay the entire 15.3%.

Being in a position where what I make next month when the checks come in, depends entirely on how well I did this month, a year's bankroll is a barely comfortable amount.

The answer for a married man responsible for making a living, supporting a family, and maintaining a normal standard of living is totally different than for a college kid who may still have some support from dad, the school, or the government and makes sufficient living expenses working at MickeyD's.

Being self employeed is the very best way I know to make a living. It is fun, It is self motivated, It is constantly a challenge. It offers an opportunity, if successful, to make far more than you ever will in someone's employ. It is so much fun because you can work half days: Pick any 12 hours you want.

Think hard.

Doc

[FatalError]

I play 109's to meet my 4300$/mo in expenses

You're not there yet

[Exitonly]

Didn't see anyone mention it, but what does your wife think about poker? Would switching to a poker 'career' piss your wife off? (Either because you get to stay at home all day, or because most people don't think it's real work)

As of right now you need 2k a month to break even, and you have 9k of savings so if you don't reach that immediately it's not the end of the world.. I think you hsould try it out for a month or two and see how things are progresing.

Say at the $2's you make $4.50 (.5 for the rakeback accout you'll need to get) If you play 25 or so a day that should be able to cover your 2k share of the bills, and some for increased bankroll (which should have priority over savings, just for the time being) Once you can get to playing the 50's i think the extra money should go more towards savings , because at the 50's you shouhld be able to get that 2k considerably easier.

[WarmonkEd]

Ed Miller or Clarkmeister had a post about going pro a long time ago. You might find it in a search of the archives. Be sure to overestimate how much $ you'll need to earn and take into account stuff like health care coverage.

Going from being a VP of a Corporation to 4-tabling $22 games making $20-30/hr /images/graemlins/confused.gif, even that may not be achievable because your sample size is way too small.

I would say in your spare time go ahead and play, but actively seek out another job.

I think I you are good at your job, there are far better opportunities for making money in the business world. Without a proven record, 'going pro with poker' with a wife and children to support is very risky and may affect your relationship compared with having a stable job.

I think the most important thing is to talk it over with your wife. But I recommend finding a new job, but playing for now while you are unemployed and switch to 8-tabling as soon as possible.

[Hendricks433]

Well Exit took the words out of my mouth. Have you talked to your wife. You seem pretty smart how your going about the whole thing so I imagine youve maybe talked to your wife but she has way more say so than if people on here tell you that its possible.

[DrPhysic]

One important addition to the above. Some employers provide medical coverage for their employees. You probably have not had to provide your own medical insurance for yourself, wife, and kids. It varies with age, # in family, whether you smoke, etc etc, but I pay $18,000 for my wife and I for medical insurance with prescription coverage per year.

Doc

[Gomez22]

First of all, thank you to all that responded in whatever manner that you did. It is well appreciated.

To answer a few questions:

My wife is 100% behind me... no matter what I choose to do. She is very understanding, compassionate, and, dare I say.... much more than I could have ever hoped for in a spouse.

I was/am (I don't know how to put it right now) VP of a small business... family owned and operated. We have 3 funeral homes, under 2 seperate corporations. I was VP of the largest, with my dad being pres. To make a long story short, another employee started rumors about my wife, which I found out were false and unfounded, I confronted him (my dad) about it and demanded my wife be apologized to, he bitched about my bitching. I told him if he wanted me gone and outta there, all he had to do was say so. He replied "I do... leave."..... so... I left. I have been personally responsible for improving our profit margin by 30% over the last 4 years and implemented computers and many other numerous advances where we once had none and also bought into the business (a small amount... only 2% with a verbal contract that I would be sole owner in 5 years).Needless to say, I feel a bit betrayed.

I talked with my wife (and am sure we will have many talks) about our possibilities, both short term and long term. I do not plan to take any action whatsoever for at least a week, feeling that I want to see how things play out, but have decided not to return unless it's on my terms.

I have a Bachelor's Degree, and have more than 15 years experience, both in the funeral industry, and accounting, payroll, general management of a small business and numerous other job-related tasks in the business world. My wife feels I would be a great commodity to almost any business, due to my "life experience".

Poker is near the bottom of what I consider to be many options available to me right now, but is one that I would, at the very least, like to get some information about in regards to playing for a living, hence my OP. I understand fully the level of commitment and hours it would take to make a living at the 20's or 30's, and possibly even the 50's. What I am unsure about at this time is whether it may be worth it to me. For now, I plan to play a minimum of 30 hours a week for a month or 2 and see where the chips fall if I don't have a VP position still available at my present/former job. I think I will also post and send out some resumes in the next 2 weeks as "feelers" to determine what is out there for me.

Once again, thank you all for your replies, remarks, and taking the time to read and respond as you saw fit.

'Mez

[Gramps]

http://members.cox.net/cuff4u/david1.htm

Some guy posted David Ross's posts about going pro (about the first year's worth). Good info on what's involved, and the emotional swings that can come with playing poker for a living (and what it's like doing it while being married and having a family, etc.).

It's SH Limit vs. SNGs, and some of the games are different than they were a few years ago, but it should still you a good idea of what it is (or can be) like.

[Mr_J]

"well considering that almost 90% of the people that play them don't"

But most people don't play full time either. He could play 26-27 $22s a day and hit 15% (just a little work) to make 3k. 26-27 takes around 5 hrs 4tabling. It's definately doable, and becomes easy as if he adds a few tables and works on his game even more (say 20% 6tabling, 3k is a breeze).

" i could only imagine what it would be like if i had a family and mortgage."

Yeh true which should be the #1 reason he shouldn't do it. If his wife was comfortably making enough then I'd say take a few months and go for it, but it sounds like she isn't so he's got to be responsible (and get a real job). Get at least parttime work that makes what you need, and you can play poker on the side.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a Bachelor's Degree, and have more than 15 years experience, both in the funeral industry, and accounting, payroll, general management of a small business and numerous other job-related tasks in the business world. My wife feels I would be a great commodity to almost any business, due to my "life experience".


[/ QUOTE ]

That's awsome. I definately think you will do far better getting a mangerial position in whatever position is availible. Poker is easy money for a while, but it does become a grind and you will probably find a real job far more fulfilling. In addition poker may not be such easy money in the future.

Your dad sounds like a dick, but the business sounds like it is in good shape. I would try to get my job back despite personality clashes. If your dad wants to be a prick thats his problem and you shouldn't be putting a fantastic job/company ownership on the line because if it, hard as it may seem. It appears the best course of actions is apologise (as much as it sucks and you don't mean it), retake job, convince your dad that he deserves an early retirement, regain control of the company and you are set without his nuisance.

If that fails, I would get a dual monitor setup so you get make a decent earn rate and play now while you are unemployed, but actively keep searching for employment as like a regional manager of a large funeral company or something.

Finally, you should have far more than 3 months saved up if he wants to fire you. He should be paying you a substansial package for your services over the years if he wants to fire you for such a trivial issue.

[Mr_J]

Yeh I agree your dad sounds like a real dick.

"I understand fully the level of commitment and hours it would take to make a living at the 20's or 30's, and possibly even the 50's"

If you put in the effort your goals are very realistic.

This is easily doable if you work on your game to make sure you at least a 15% player at the 22s, and add 2+ tables.

I'll give you some examples:

10% at the $22s, 4tabling for 30hrs a week would make you 2k a month.

Bump your skill up to 15%, and 6table gives you 4k a month.

Bump skill up to 20% and 8table gives you 7k per month.

Playing for a living, well you mainly just have to be diciplined in putting in the hours and in bankroll management, and make sure you have enough expenses saved in advance to comfortably ride out the dry patches.

[bawcerelli]

poker can do a number on you psychologically. if your emotions are already upset because of the times with your dad, poker will probably do nothing but exacerbate those negative emotions.