Winning the Party Super Monday

[AceHiStation]

Well, some of you may recall a previous thread I posted about a month and a half ago, Look Mom/Dad, I won 12K (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=125717&F_Board=psych&Thre ad=3070458&partnumber=&postmarker=). Since winning the ~12K, I haven't really talked about poker much with my parents. My dad brought up poker once at dinner...

Dad: Were you playing?
Me: No.
Dad: You don't play anymore do you?
Me: No, I still play a little bit.
Dad: Have you lost at all?
Me: Nope.
Dad: Have you won at all?
Me: Yeah, a little bit.

So my dad knows I still play, but not to what extent. As a result of his being close-minded to my poker hobby, I decided to not share details with him in regards to my hobby. I now however have won $32.7k winning Party's Super Monday this week. I was on a -~5K downswing(moved up to NL1000 and took a few horrendous beats). Now I have won 11.6k and 32.7k totalling 44.3k. Minus the >5K downswing that totals <39K.

Now, I have decided to tell my parents and figured I would take a listen to some advice. I am still living at home and will be for the next two months, at which point in time I will be at least moving out of the house, but possibly out of town as well.

Couple things I am considering, will I simply tell them I won the money and not look to discuss much more? Will I tell them I won 25K to not let them realize I was on a >5K downswing and when it comes time to file taxes I have some leighway(sp?).

Anyways, I've heard a bunch of different things from my friends including "tell them soon" and "what they don't know doesn't hurt them." I am pretty sure I am telling my parents, and I'm not going to stop playing just because they don't approve, although I would prefer it if they at least didn't look down upon it.

Bottom line, I need to get out of the house and I realize that, but feel free to reiterate that if you please. Any advice would be appreciated.

To end it with a quote from a response from my previous thread...
[ QUOTE ]
another meaningful win and they will be your biggest fans.
(trust me)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks,
-Ace

What is your school/job situation? How old are you? How long have you been playing?

One way to maybe get their approval is to ask for help on what to do with your earnings. Maybe say "Dad, I won this money but want to do the right thing. Can you help me with figuring out the taxes?" OR get their help with putting it in a college fund. But, treat this as found money -- keep a portion for your bankroll for your previous limit and save the rest. If you start playing with the entire bankroll (like it sounds) it'll be gone before you know it and that will _not_ impress your parents.

[mackthefork]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your school/job situation? How old are you? How long have you been playing?

One way to maybe get their approval is to ask for help on what to do with your earnings. Maybe say "Dad, I won this money but want to do the right thing. Can you help me with figuring out the taxes?" OR get their help with putting it in a college fund. But, treat this as found money -- keep a portion for your bankroll for your previous limit and save the rest. If you start playing with the entire bankroll (like it sounds) it'll be gone before you know it and that will _not_ impress your parents.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that idea, show some responsibilty that they can see. Congrats on the Super monday, keep up the good work.

Mack

[AceHiStation]

Let me clear some things up...

I'm a 22 y/o that just finished college(but I'm finishing my final co-op and 1 online class right now). I do plan on using my parents accountant with regards to my poker winnings. I *do not* plan on playing with this entire bankroll. I've already cashed out $24K and have $10.5K left in my poker accounts and plan on dropping that ~5K once the $24K cashouts go through. I don't plan on spending this money in the near future. I've had plans to buy a digital camera(~350), Bengals Jersey(~75), and an electric razor(?). Other than that, I plan on saving all of the money and continuing to play $400NL(until I beat it consistently) and Party Supers twice a week or so.

Thanks again,
-Ace

[dtbog]

congrats, bro /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was watching you for a while before I went to work last nite, and thought you did a great job (that one hand where you tried to steal and bb called with KTo almost cracked you).

My grandparents don't approve of my poker, but I let them know that I play. If I got a big payday, I'd sit down with them and discuss what I should do with the money, they would have more experience with that much, and would know the best way to handle it, and what to do with it.

That said, half would probably go towards a savings account, and the other half would probably be used towards a new affordable car of what I take off the top.

Keep this up man, and congrats on the big win!

[Jeffage]

Here's my advice. Don't get into specific dollar amounts with them. Talk to them like you did your dad. Tell them you've won some and you are going to pay taxes on it. Then use your OWN accountant to avoid a conflict of interest with them. That's it. Specific details will cause stress to those who don't understand how poker works.

Jeff
"The state of a player's bankroll is a well kept secret"

[Abbaddabba]

Most use the erronious rationale of using the immediate past as a predictor of the future outcomes. Parents following that line of thought will be encouraging you when you win big, but shake their head in disapointment when you experience a downswing. If you don't want to hear them whine, just give them the net figure.

Most people have a suprisingly poor understanding of probability and statistics. They'll take whatever number you throw at them at face value. If they hear the word "lose $5000", a little bulb in their head will start blinking. It doesnt matter if it goes with "won $27000". When they realize that there are uncertain outcomes where you can lose that much money, their gut instinct is going to be to force you to quit. It doesn't matter how probable a win is, or how improbable a loss is (or how certain you can be that you'll be up after a given sample).

[AceHiStation]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's my advice. Don't get into specific dollar amounts with them. Talk to them like you did your dad. Tell them you've won some and you are going to pay taxes on it. Then use your OWN accountant to avoid a conflict of interest with them. That's it. Specific details will cause stress to those who don't understand how poker works.

Jeff
"The state of a player's bankroll is a well kept secret"

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a decent idea... I told my mom and of course she says "I wish you wouldn't ... gamblers don't think they have a problem" and I responded with "I understand why you would think that, and there are problem gamblers, but I haven't played once since I won and I don't plan on playing today, if I feel like playing tomorrow, maybe I will."

Well, one distraught parent down, one to go... the tougher one

-Ace



Edit: I went ahead with "over $25,000", she responded with "Between the two times?" to which I responded "No, I have about $40,000 I am depositing into my savings account."

Opening line: I know you guys don't approve of my poker hobby, but I think you deserve to know how its going.

[AceHiStation]

Thanks guys for all the replies...

I went over to my friends house tonight to discuss the possibilities of moving to a new city(Charleston, SC) and had a few beers. I got home to find my dad still awake. I discussed developing a website for a real estate business he runs on the side of his medical career and he was very excited that I was willing to work with him. Following the conversation I asked "Did mom tell you about the poker?" and he responded with "a little bit." He had the chance to think it over, over a few glasses of wine before I got home. We talked for about half an hour and he asked questions like, "How much can you lose?", "How do you pay the $150 buyin?", and "Is it legal?". I went ahead and answered all the questions and explained how I used to play more chess online than I ever did poker online. That seemed to be a good comment for him. He went on to say that at first he was thinking "It's his life, let him do what he wants." He also said he wanted to make sure that I didn't get myself in over my head and that I realized the potential consequences of a habit-forming activity such as gambling. I also explained to my dad that "I know you probably won't believe it, but the 1st place out of 992 people felt better than the $25k." The conversation ended with "You do what you want, I am glad to hear that you are limiting your play and I hope you continue to do so." His biggest point was "a month ago it was 11k, this month its 25k(yeah, it was 32k, but i didn't tell the truth to leave room for downswings), I just don't want next month for you to want more and go for more."

Soooooo.... all in all it went as good as possible in my mind. I finally can enjoy my victory and 95% of my winnings will be sent directly to my savings account. Plans seem to be going towards moving to Charleston with a few friends for next year and life seems to be good. I appreciate all the comments and hope maybe someone else with a similar situation will come upon this thread. And if you do... sitemail me, cause I'd love to talk about it, give advice, and experiences/feelings. Till then, good luck on the tables and I hope the thread was at least enjoyable if not something to learn from.

Thanks again,
-Ace

[somapopper]

Congrats on the wins. FWIW you sound like you'll be under-bankrolled for your future playing plans, but if you're just taking a shot and you think you can beat the game, nothing wrong with that so long as you're willing to accept it if your BR gets wiped out.

Telling your dad you're investing 25k of your winnings and willing to risk the remaining 5k seems to me just fine. At the end of the day you're an adult, it's your money, and I'm sure your father can probably understand viewing the 5k as "found money" and an acceptable loss. That said, you seem nervous enough that your father may simply view gambling as an immoral and dangerous past time no matter how it's approached. If you reasonably expect that this is his view, then I doubt any amount of reasoned argument or financial responsibility will change his mind.

[DWarrior]

What stakes do you normally play, I don't know if losing $5K in $1000NL is wise blaming it on "bad beats", that sounds a bit dangerous.

[AceHiStation]

I typically play the $400 games on Party but took a go at the $1K games. I didn't lose all my $5K downswing to beats, but definately lost a few big pots to a couple flukes. I had the bankroll to play the game(15K) and once I dropped 5K I moved back down to the $400 games. Now that I won this money do I plan on going back to the $1K game? No. Unless I can build a suitable bankroll in the $400 games, there's no reason in my eyes to move up in limits.

Again and again... thanks for the responses,
-Ace

I'm glad to hear that. It makes me nervous hearing about one of my friends jumping up a couple of levels because of a bankroll injection vs. earning it on the tables. More times than not they lose the money and the scary thing is, they think it's all bad beats.

[DWarrior]

Good thing you moved back down.

I play $50NL, and only moneyed in the Monday Tourney getting in through a satellite, so I'm nowhere good at poker as you are, but realize that the Bankroll rule is ONLY if you are good to play at those limits.

If you're not a winning player at 1000NL, you'll just burn through the 15k taking "bad beats".

For some reason, I loosened up and began playing offsuit connectors and offsuit one-gaps. The result: bad beats kept me at break-even or slight losses each session. Once I started folding the crap hands, my winrate miraculously began climbing back up, despite the bad beats.

Even though winning the tournament means you have at least some level of skill, it also means you've had a tremendous amount of luck. You can't go through a 600 person field without being lucky.

You sound like a reasonable guy though, so I doubt I said anything you didn't already know.

[AceHiStation]

There is absolutely a luck element to winning a tournament with a 992 person field. I'd be curious to see what you guys think the top players cashing %s are, final table %s, ROI%, and all that. I have a joke of a sample-size and I realize that, but I'll mention my stats just for the hell of it. I also realize that my stats are WAY ABOVE what is considered an optimal winrate.

24 Super Weekdays Played
ROI: 1,107%
Total Cashes: 6
Total Final-Tables: 3

[DWarrior]

[ QUOTE ]
There is absolutely a luck element to winning a tournament with a 992 person field.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking, right? How many coin flips did you win? If you answered more than half, you got lucky.

Everyone knows you have to get lucky to win a tournament.

[AceHiStation]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is absolutely a luck element to winning a tournament with a 992 person field.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're joking, right? How many coin flips did you win? If you answered more than half, you got lucky.

Everyone knows you have to get lucky to win a tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]


I actually lost more than half of my coinflips, but won a couple important ones. I had one specific hand that would have eliminated me had I lost, as I pushed a suited Ace from the CO and button called with JJ and my 1 live card flopped. I also pushed 88 against a donk who limped KTo and called my push, thankfully I won that cointoss or I would have been down to ~1BB. No doubt about it I got lucky, but I'm looking forward to playing a couple next week and seeing how I do.

And sidenote, I haven't played a hand since the win.
-Ace

[idrinkcoors]

Congrats on your wins, (and for the Bengals going 4-0).

There is a lot of great advice in here, especially the opening line: "I know you guys don't approve...."

I agree with the person who said that you probably shouldn't mention any exact numbers. I'm older than you, but even today, my parents would flip if I told them that I lost 5k, (no matter how much I won). If your parents are like mine, they won't hear: "I've won 43k this year." They will only hear, "I've given back 5k of that."

Good luck to you.

[MicroBob]

He said that there IS a luck element to winning a tournament.

Did you think he said that there was NOT luck involved or something?


To acewarrior - sounds like your strategy to tell your parents went fine and dandy.

You were correct to not mention the down-swing to them. They clearly do not have the ability to understand that down-swings can and will happen.
They would have panicked at the thought of you dropping $5k.

Telling them about investing so much of it will show them that you truly are responsible and that you really DO take your finances seriously (which is of great concern to them) so that should be an ease to their minds.


My parents know that I play for a living (I'm 34...but you do want your parents to approve).
My Mom doesn't have THAT tough a time with it. But there's a lot about it that she doesn't understand.

I know that a big downswing would cause her to panic. So I don't tell her about that.


For your parents, you can say "In the past 2 months I made another $25k" or "in the past 3 months I made another $7k" or whatever.
It doesn't have to be "In August I lost $5k and then in Sept I turned it around and won $32k."
They don't want to hear about you having to 'turn it around' because they will just get afraid of 'what happens when it DOESN'T turn around??!?!?!?!"

As long as you are winning long-term that's all they need to know.



Or you can just tell them what your average is NOW.

For example...if you are up $32k now after 6 months...and go ahead and drop $8k of that over the next 6 months.....you can just go ahead and say that in the past 12 months you are averaging $2k per month.


If you are playing more cash-games you can just talk in terms of $60/hour (don't bother saying $20/hr per table on 3 different tables...keep it simple for them).

When you give an impressive sounding figure like $60/hr EVERY time you sit down (with it's ups and downs of course) then this could sound more significant to them.
Sounds more like you are very seriously keeping track and that you aren't in it just trying to hit the 'big score'.


Anyway - you can explain that "of course...I don't win EVERY time i sit down to play. But I do win 60% of my sessions. And the amount I win is bigger than the amount I lose. It has some ups and downs in there...but in the long-run I am a winning-player and my results have consistently proven that."

But giving specific details as to how much you might drop in a bad week will just cause them to worry.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Other than that, I plan on saving all of the money and continuing to play $400NL(until I beat it consistently) and Party Supers twice a week or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. This is one of the smartest most self-aware things I have ever seen on these forums.

[ChicagoTroy]

Your folks are cool. You handled it pretty well, and it sounds like things are on the right track.

Remember you're an adult now, I had a similar tough time with limits with my folks at that age since I moved home after finishing college. There's a weird dynamic that goes on.

[MicroBob]

[ QUOTE ]
(and for the Bengals going 4-0)

[/ QUOTE ]



I grew up in the Cincy area.
Go Bengals!!
(about freaking time)

HEre's what you can do. Tell them you are up 10K. Then a little while later, tell then you are up 20K. Do this until you tell them you are up to X, where X is all you have. Pick the increments that make them the happiest.