2/4 KK

[SippinSoma]

No reads.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, MP2 calls.

River: (12 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, MP2 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 12 BB

[thejameser]

i likely play it the same. a bet/fold line on the river is giving up too much to unknowns.

I think you played this well. I'd consider chucking it on the flop, but you have at least three outs if you're behind and MP2 may well be betting a flush draw. You have to bet the turn after it's checked to you - you can't give a free card. Good check on the end here too. It's hard to see what MP2 has that isn't beating you if he calls. He may have something like QK or QT I guess. Still, I'd check behind.

[jskills]

I play it the same.

Sux to see that A on the flpp when you've got KK.

[Petteri]

I think you should fold flop. It is tough to fold hand like KK on 1 bet on flop, but this is that kind of situation.

1. Board has almost worst possible context. It is very likely someone has ace or flush draw. 2 pair is also possibility and probably also gut-shot straight draws are out.

2. Pot has five other opponents. Against five opponents second pair is very marginal holding.

3. If you any behind you have probably very few clear outs to win whole pot or can be drawing dead.

4. Raiser is in your immediate right. As many players automatically check to pre-flop raiser, it is possible someone will raise if you call. If you raise you have to pay at least 2 bets to see turn.

I think this is time to make really good fold on flop. Against 5 other players you should only play solid values or good draws, this time time you have either of them.

[SippinSoma]

[ QUOTE ]

1. Board has almost worst possible context. It is very likely someone has ace or flush draw. 2 pair is also possibility and probably also gut-shot straight draws are out.


[/ QUOTE ]

It is likely that someone has an ace. It's also likely no one has an ace. The only two pair is QJ, which I have outs against. And I want to fold gutshots. I'm not really worried about T's b/c they're only drawing to 2 outs. If one of the K's are out, I want to fold him and win me another half of a pot the times a T drops.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Pot has five other opponents. Against five opponents second pair is very marginal holding.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have dirty set outs, a gutshot, and a chance to drive out the rest of my opponents. Why fold in this big pot and not raise?

[ QUOTE ]

3. If you any behind you have probably very few clear outs to win whole pot or can be drawing dead.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm never drawing dead. In the rare case that someone has KT, I'm drawing slim to a split. You're right, I don't have many outs. But don't you think I have the best hand here a fair amount of time?

[ QUOTE ]

4. Raiser is in your immediate right. As many players automatically check to pre-flop raiser, it is possible someone will raise if you call. If you raise you have to pay at least 2 bets to see turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

What raiser?

[ QUOTE ]

I think this is time to make really good fold on flop. Against 5 other players you should only play solid values or good draws, this time time you have either of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe in any rules and I don't believe this would be a good fold. I don't have enough reason to believe an ace is very likely yet, there are a lot of draws on this board, and a wide range of hands will pay off flop raises and turn bets.

[thejameser]

i think you made the most when ahead and lost the least when behind.

[Fat Nicky]

considering the context of the board, i don't mind your line as there could be a really wide range of hands against you. Most of the time, however, I would be expected to be behind A-little.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't believe in any rules and I don't believe this would be a good fold. I don't have enough reason to believe an ace is very likely yet, there are a lot of draws on this board, and a wide range of hands will pay off flop raises and turn bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm leaning towards a fold on the flop too. You're up against five opponents who have all voluntarily put money into the pot. Sure, sometimes you'll throw away the best hand - but you have to think about the long term. Most of the time in this spot you'll be drawing very slim.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I don't believe in any rules and I don't believe this would be a good fold. I don't have enough reason to believe an ace is very likely yet, there are a lot of draws on this board, and a wide range of hands will pay off flop raises and turn bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm leaning towards a fold on the flop too. You're up against five opponents who have all voluntarily put money into the pot. Sure, sometimes you'll throw away the best hand - but you have to think about the long term. Most of the time in this spot you'll be drawing very slim.

[/ QUOTE ]
I too would also fold the flop, but the pot size is large enough where playing the hand the way the hero did can only be a small mistake at best. I estimiate that the hero has 3 pure outs here and he is getting 13-1 to call, which is very close to getting correct odds to call, and if the hero has the odds to call he is much better off raising. Overall I think the ev of folding is only slightly higher than the ev of raising in this situation so i dont think the hero made a terrible mistake. This is a very good hand problem, and I think the flop play is still debatable, but I would fold in this situation.

[The Legend]

I think one possibility is playing this like a straight up gutshot draw. The flop is a free card raise. Take the free card on the turn maybe?? I don't know.

If you think you are behind, you got enough to at least call to draw to a gutshot. You could raise to get rid of any other kings, and maybe take a free card. I think this option is at least better than folding.

Now are we ahead enough to bet the turn? I'd say no, but I'm no expert.

[Fishlips_Jones]

I like the flop raise. I'm tempted to take the free card on the turn though. The 8 is a potential killer for us and the dude with Ax is staying with us no matter what.

As a wimp, I check behind on the river and call one bet there too since I may have induced a bluff.

Fishlips

[ QUOTE ]
I think one possibility is playing this like a straight up gutshot draw. The flop is a free card raise. Take the free card on the turn maybe?? I don't know.

If you think you are behind, you got enough to at least call to draw to a gutshot. You could raise to get rid of any other kings, and maybe take a free card. I think this option is at least better than folding.

Now are we ahead enough to bet the turn? I'd say no, but I'm no expert.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that the hero's chances of being ahead are quite dismal on the turn, but in this large pot he only needs to be ahead here a small percentage of the time to make betting correct, and plus you never know, maybe someone will make a horrible fold with their ace bad kicker. I know this possibility is remote but no one can make a bad fold if the hero doesnt bet. So between the small possibility the hero is in the lead and the small possibility the hero can force a better hand to fold, I think betting the turn is better than checking, but I admit this is a razor thin decision and I would never think checking is a bad play here by any means.

[Hybrid_11]

Gonna have to fold the flop here and with your line on the flop im not putting any more money in the potw when sb cold calls the flop. I dont think we can give even give you a pure 3 outs because you could be drawing to a split to hands like kq or kj. Your raise might get ax to slow down but hes not folding so id check the turn and probably have to evaluate the river when it comes.

[Solid_p]

I don't like the flop raise. It's a 6 player pot and you surely will have an ace against you somewhere. Given that you raise the flop, you have to take the free card on the turn against two players.

[Solid_p]

Maybe a flop raise is the best move in this big pot, but I still think we need to take the free card against two opponents.

[B Dids]

Pretty much how it's done.