10/20 AA Deep Stacks [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

KaneKungFu123

10-05-2005, 05:58 AM

This is a tricky hand. Villian has the word "loose goofy" in my notes. I have $4100. He has me covered.

I am UTG, he is in MP. I get A /images/graemlins/spade.gif A /images/graemlins/club.gif and raise to $100. He calls.

Flop

4 /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I bet pot. He calls.

Turn

Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I really dont like betting the turn here against players with this label because if they raise me then I have to fold. If I bet and they call, Im going to check the river, and have to call a large bet and theyll get paid off if they hit something odd. I know that a huge majority of the time I'm ahead here and they love to bet when checked to. It seems unlikley that he cold-called the flop with two pair or a set given our stack sizes and his image. So I can check-call or check-raise.

I check. He bets $870 into a $690 pot.

Whats your plan at this point? Do you perfer to lead the turn?

10-05-2005, 06:56 AM

Looks like QQ or a big draw like JTc or QKc / AQc. He would raise sets, and two pairs on the flop presumably (unless he's really goofy), so they're the only hands I can see him having.

That said, its either check raise all in or fold. I actually think big draw is his most likely holding here so check raising big is 1000 times better than folding but since the stacks are so deep it lets him get away when he's drawing and stack you when he's not. I don't know what to do either, but I think calling here is pretty bad since he's likely pair + flush or straight + flush or already has you beat, but you don't really know what's a bad card for you on the river. Maybe my read is bad tho.

Hattifnatt

10-05-2005, 07:08 AM

I think a 2/3 pot bet on the turn would have been better. If he raises, run!

mgsimpleton

10-05-2005, 07:16 AM

yeah that´s what i would do if i were playing 2/4 - bet 2/3 pot... i mean that´s what the book says, right?

however, seeing as how if i´m hero, i´m playing 10/20 with 200BB against "loose goofy" i´d probably not scream overpair quite so loud, as kane mentioned, since it is very easy for him to bluff raise on the turn especially if he has a large draw, knowing hero can´t reasonably call with anything but QQ or 99. I agree with the first poster, this was my initial reaction as well, that he has some sort of big draw or a set with a big draw being much more likely. stacks are deep buuuut I still kind of like a big raise here... or fold. i´m sort of torn given the depth of the stacks, if you had 50 BB less i´d say it´s a check/push on the turn but here you won´t get caleld unless you´re beaten so your read has to be damned good to make this a profitable push for protection since you lose a crapload when he does call with a better made hand. it seems like your read isn´t too good (hence the posting of this hand) so i don´t think a fold is too far off though i´d probably push because my read vs a loose goofy unknown is 75/25 (anyone wanna do the math for my lazy self given these numbers?) and my instinct says it´s a close decision and i like to push. added benefit of you maybe still getting called by the 14 out-ish draw since people like those.

TheArtist

10-05-2005, 07:27 AM

I only fold if he is world class player who has a good read on you. Like a good player will call you with a pair up to Q there. When you bet the pot, he knows you have a big pair. So he can take some chances and slowplay his set
even though there is a flush draw out there.

However, with out a good read on you, how can he slow play a set on the flop with a flush draw out there? Most decent players will raise there set there. Moreover, if he had QQ how can he over bet the pot on the turn? He really has to know that you are not capable of laying down big pairs to make that kind of overbet.

I would call the turn and decide on the river. Most players will check the river if they were betting the turn with KK, JJ, TT or AQ and value bet a bigger hand.

The problem with calling on the turn is if he is good he will put you on AA or KK, so if he has a good read on you, he might make a big bluff bet on the river so it can get tricky.

Richard

mgsimpleton

10-05-2005, 07:31 AM

what range of hands can make calling here then "deciding" on the river more profitable than another line?

Chris Daddy Cool

10-05-2005, 07:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That said, its either check raise all in or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who thinks that playing for stacks this deep with AA on this board is bad?

savman

10-05-2005, 12:39 PM

i agree with the turn check. check call is a great way to put onesself in a position to make a HUGE mistake on the river. i agree with the bird. you must either push or fold here. villain has made an awesome turn bet imo (accidentally??? i doubt it)....he is betting ~50bb committing your ~200bb....its close, especially against loose goofy, but i think i find a fold here. mainly b/c the way it was played this hand would affect me if i lost, and i dont see any metagame value that would make me feel better about losing.

knifeandfork

10-05-2005, 01:10 PM

maybe loose goofy means he is goofy enough to call on the flop with a set "knowing" that a club free turn gives him a good chance to tie you up in an overpair.
or maybe he is just semibluffing with 12 or more outs to inspire the big laydown.
I think the hand would be interesting if he had called with a set because he had a decent read on you. but what do i know these stakes are a little steep for me.
I would probably call and look at the river squeeze my head and try to make the best decision then.

flawless_victory

10-05-2005, 01:37 PM

nevermind.

kurosh

10-05-2005, 01:47 PM

Are you dead?

DonButtons

10-05-2005, 01:52 PM

why would you want to play for stacks with 200xbb with 1 pair?

I like how he played it, except these turn overbets always piss me off...Im also wondering what you did, because I face these a lot when I tell myself I just want to call a turn pot bet or less to control the pot size...

flawless_victory

10-05-2005, 01:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to play for stacks with 200xbb with 1 pair?

[/ QUOTE ]is this a joke?

TheWorstPlayer

10-05-2005, 02:01 PM

I dont get this either. YOu want to play for 200bb with one pair because you think you are ahead. It really doesn't make much sense to say you won't get in 200bb with one pair. You just have to look at the sitation and see if pushing the turn is +EV. Who cares if you have 200bb or 500bb +EV is +EV.

flawless_victory

10-05-2005, 02:02 PM

i think the turn check is pretty obvious as ppl are going to autobet in this spot so often.
when he makes that overbet, i dont know... just looks like hes trying pretty hard to play a big pot. id prob lay it down, but a case can def be made for almost any action... im not sure i can say much w/ so little info on the guy... default is to muck it. raising all in as a two way bet may be good against some.

flawless_victory

10-05-2005, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get this either. YOu want to play for 200bb with one pair because you think you are ahead. It really doesn't make much sense to say you won't get in 200bb with one pair. You just have to look at the sitation and see if pushing the turn is +EV. Who cares if you have 200bb or 500bb +EV is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]yeah.
i might get it in with one par more than some, but i def fold bottom set more than most...
i like to employ this crazy tactic we call "hand reading" when i play a pot.

BobboFitos

10-05-2005, 04:14 PM

okayplayer

10-05-2005, 04:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i think the turn check is pretty obvious as ppl are going to autobet in this spot so often.
when he makes that overbet, i dont know... just looks like hes trying pretty hard to play a big pot. id prob lay it down, but a case can def be made for almost any action... im not sure i can say much w/ so little info on the guy... default is to muck it. raising all in as a two way bet may be good against some.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he wanted to play a big pot (which I like to do with big hands with deepstacks), don't you think a raise on the flop would be Villain's line? Because if Villain flopped a big hand, he should want to raise it, because if you have a solid hand yourself, you will either call or re - raise (being a draw heavy board, and a scare card could come on the turn). To me it almost seems as if he senses you have a marginal hand, and won't call a big bet. This spot sucks, but I would lean towards a push. A call leaves you with ~3k and a ~2400 pot on river, and this could leave you in an even worse spot.

captZEEbo1

10-05-2005, 04:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont get this either. YOu want to play for 200bb with one pair because you think you are ahead. It really doesn't make much sense to say you won't get in 200bb with one pair. You just have to look at the sitation and see if pushing the turn is +EV. Who cares if you have 200bb or 500bb +EV is +EV.

[/ QUOTE ]yeah.
i might get it in with one par more than some, but i def fold bottom set more than most...
i like to employ this crazy tactic we call "hand reading" when i play a pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mucking bottom set are you on drugs? I can't remember more than once or twice where I was like "I wish I went with my read and mucked that bottom set". I CAN think of a few times, where I was like "time to pay off higher set/straight" to be shown some absurd [censored].

Ulysses

10-05-2005, 05:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
why would you want to play for stacks with 200xbb with 1 pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do it all the time. The times I do it, it is because I think I have the best hand.

Ulysses

10-05-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i might get it in with one par more than some, but i def fold bottom set more than most...

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of those statements definitely apply to my play as well.

captZEEbo1

10-05-2005, 06:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i might get it in with one par more than some, but i def fold bottom set more than most...

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of those statements definitely apply to my play as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you guys talking about turn/river situations where the board has gone to hell or on the flop?

autobet

10-05-2005, 06:53 PM

I'm betting the turn most of the time, or check raising all in once in a while. Against loose/goofy I'm liking this board.

riverboatking

10-05-2005, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like QQ or a big draw like JTc or QKc / AQc. He would raise sets, and two pairs on the flop presumably (unless he's really goofy), so they're the only hands I can see him having.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a joke right?
are there monsters hiding under your bed as well?

Ulysses

10-05-2005, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

i might get it in with one par more than some, but i def fold bottom set more than most...

[/ QUOTE ]

Both of those statements definitely apply to my play as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you guys talking about turn/river situations where the board has gone to hell or on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have folded bottom set on the flop once that I can recall. Maybe twice.

tom

10-05-2005, 07:42 PM

this has got to be live right? on line would be mighty difficult to imagine, though i guess anything is possible.

durrrr

10-05-2005, 09:46 PM

gah this spot makes me want to puke. I (along with everyone else who is responding) dont have enough information on villain to have a confident decision, however unfortunately it seems like KKF didnt at the time either. I think a case can be made for c/r allin, and folding. Also... depending on the villain (if he plays bad) calling could (maybe... possibly) be an option. This is assuming he messes up the river somehow (i.e. bluffs too much, not enough etc.) Altho there arent many pretty river cards for the hero. I don't like the idea of pushing the turn after villain's bet and letting him get away cheap when behind, and take a large pot off us when ahead, however i think in this spot it is the most +ev move, unless he will completely mess up the river(in which case i call, and pray i read goot). Any comment on villain's river play KKF?

Spladle Master

10-05-2005, 11:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I really dont like betting the turn here against players with this label because if they raise me then I have to fold. If I bet and they call, Im going to check the river, and have to call a large bet and theyll get paid off if they hit something odd. I know that a huge majority of the time I'm ahead here and they love to bet when checked to. It seems unlikley that he cold-called the flop with two pair or a set given our stack sizes and his image. So I can check-call or check-raise.

I check. He bets $870 into a $690 pot.

Whats your plan at this point? Do you perfer to lead the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the information you have provided, I would check-raise all-in. In general I do prefer to lead the turn here, but that is because I do not feel that I have to fold if I am raised. However if he will only raise the turn with hands that beat you, the turn is a very easy bet.

I think it would have been helpful if you provided the number of players sitting at the table when this hand occurred.

outdrwn

10-06-2005, 01:15 AM

who puts loose/goofy? I like to label..LAG, LAGG, type up hands and crap like limped from ths bet this after this much time, he overcalled with that crap? DO NOT BLUFF HIM, solid preflop, etc. loose/goofy doesn't really say much, except that in this situation your aces are good /images/graemlins/smile.gif

10-06-2005, 12:00 PM

You showed major weakness by checking, after what probably looked like to him just a continuation bet. Absolutely no reason to check when the 'scare card' queen fell, unless you're hoping to induce a bluff. I don't think you should push all in because if you're beat you're going to get called, and if you're in the lead you won't get called most of the time (maybe if he has k-k or a-q, but that's a big maybe). I say reraise a decent amount to let him no you're not weak and to make him think twice about any draws he has. If he reraises all in then maybe you can fold(at least you didn't push at first with the losing hand), but it's still close. IMHO

Yeti

10-06-2005, 12:07 PM

FWIW, this is a great hand to post a thread about.

mgsimpleton

10-06-2005, 12:10 PM

you missed the point of the post. he ain´t overbetting the pot on the turn because hero showed weakness and he thinks he need to bet this much in order to get hero to lay down AK. the key to this hand is figuring out what the overbet means and how to proceed from there. if the guy bet 2/3 pot this would be a standard hand.

fsuplayer

10-06-2005, 12:11 PM

agreed.

arod15

10-06-2005, 01:13 PM

I prefer check raising here. Altought leading is ok to against a more passive player. But if he is as you described check raising looks good.

Leptyne

10-06-2005, 01:26 PM

To me "loose goofy" means unpredictable. Since you can't have a lot of confidence in what he has, yet you feel a great percentage of the time you're ahead I think you want to give your opponent the opportunity to make a mistake.

Push! Big bet poker is not for the faint of heart.

10-06-2005, 08:27 PM

Well, after checking the turn he could put you on AK/AQ/JJ/TT yeah? If you say he likes to bet, then it looks like he is trying to move you off this hand range. I would check/call, and then check river. If he bets the river, I guess it depends on the river card, I dunno.

I'm just throwing something out there, anyone else think a check/call, check line is any good?

KaneKungFu123

10-06-2005, 08:32 PM

im surprised everyone hates check-calling. once these guys start bluffing, they usually cant help themself but to throw the rest in on the river.

pushing is probally best. he calls with jj.

GoodTiMes

10-07-2005, 05:31 AM

who is KaneKungFu on Party?

creedofhubris

10-07-2005, 07:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
im surprised everyone hates check-calling. once these guys start bluffing, they usually cant help themself but to throw the rest in on the river.

pushing is probally best. he calls with jj.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was this the results?

fsuplayer

10-07-2005, 07:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
who is KaneKungFu on Party?

[/ QUOTE ]

wouldnt we all like to know.

boose_bagina

10-07-2005, 08:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
he calls with jj

[/ QUOTE ]
if this is what he had, loose-goofy is an understatement.

Yeti

10-07-2005, 12:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Was this the results?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

xorbie

10-07-2005, 12:42 PM

GoodTiMes

10-07-2005, 03:53 PM

Somebody has to know who this KaneKungFu is. He posts some of his hands, someone here has had to observed a posted hand with him before.

Big_Jim

10-07-2005, 04:54 PM

Nobody is going to post that here, out of respect for Mr. Fu.

Yeti

10-07-2005, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody has to know who this KaneKungFu is. He posts some of his hands, someone here has had to observed a posted hand with him before.

[/ QUOTE ]

Tons of people know who he is. No-one is going to say. Stop asking. Shut up.

Ulysses

10-07-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Somebody has to know who this KaneKungFu is. He posts some of his hands, someone here has had to observed a posted hand with him before.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know all of Kane's Party names. Please PM me and I will give you instructions on where to transfer me $5 in exchange for that information.

kagame

10-07-2005, 07:14 PM

maybe hell give it up on the subscription service version of his new blog...

limon

10-07-2005, 08:04 PM

i dont like riasing with aces when the stacks are deep. i go for the limp rr and i rr big. if it gets called through then you have the power. no one is going to make a ballsy bluff move on you because everyone is afraid of the nuts in a limped pot. your much more likely to get called down are play patty pat with a hopeless hand that doeasnt know where its at.

KaneKungFu123

10-07-2005, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like riasing with aces when the stacks are deep. i go for the limp rr and i rr big. if it gets called through then you have the power. no one is going to make a ballsy bluff move on you because everyone is afraid of the nuts in a limped pot. your much more likely to get called down are play patty pat with a hopeless hand that doeasnt know where its at.

[/ QUOTE ]

dont know if i mentioned it but me and this cat were the only ones deep at the table. It wasnt a deep stack game, we just both happened to have deep stacks.

Good post though Limon.

creedofhubris

10-07-2005, 09:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]

pushing is probally best. he calls with jj.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing would be a standard play with a more reasonably-sized stack, like $2K. Here it's the stack sizes that make it awkward, since the average player will only call your very large raise with hands that beat yours and possibly KK. I'm glad you found someone "special" enough to call with jacks here.

KaneKungFu123

10-07-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

pushing is probally best. he calls with jj.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing would be a standard play with a more reasonably-sized stack, like $2K. Here it's the stack sizes that make it awkward, since the average player will only call your very large raise with hands that beat yours and possibly KK. I'm glad you found someone "special" enough to call with jacks here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you like folding then, or calling?

J_V

10-07-2005, 09:50 PM

patty pat?

Patty Cake, Baker's man?

creedofhubris

10-08-2005, 12:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

pushing is probally best. he calls with jj.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing would be a standard play with a more reasonably-sized stack, like $2K. Here it's the stack sizes that make it awkward, since the average player will only call your very large raise with hands that beat yours and possibly KK. I'm glad you found someone "special" enough to call with jacks here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you like folding then, or calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding AA here to one barrel. Definite calling territory.

KaneKungFu123

10-08-2005, 08:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

pushing is probally best. he calls with jj.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing would be a standard play with a more reasonably-sized stack, like $2K. Here it's the stack sizes that make it awkward, since the average player will only call your very large raise with hands that beat yours and possibly KK. I'm glad you found someone "special" enough to call with jacks here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you like folding then, or calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding AA here to one barrel. Definite calling territory.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. The river card was a Jack (try to forget he had JJ).

What is your action?

If you check and he bets $3K, do you call?

Yeti

10-08-2005, 08:53 AM

FWIW, I didn't reply to this thread because I didn't have much of a clue what to do, and my gut contradicted with everyone else.

I would almost certainly call this turn. I know it puts you in a dodgy river spot but I think that's better than making it $3k more to him. I think only a tiny percent of villains are going to make a mistake here. This isn't a pot that's been 3 or 4-bet preflop. You don't know he has another overpair. He could quite literally have anything, and you know not everyone in these games is raising the flop with a set.

DcifrThs

10-08-2005, 01:58 PM

BobboFitos

10-08-2005, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

pushing is probally best. he calls with jj.

[/ QUOTE ]

Pushing would be a standard play with a more reasonably-sized stack, like $2K. Here it's the stack sizes that make it awkward, since the average player will only call your very large raise with hands that beat yours and possibly KK. I'm glad you found someone "special" enough to call with jacks here.

[/ QUOTE ]

you like folding then, or calling?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not folding AA here to one barrel. Definite calling territory.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. The river card was a Jack (try to forget he had JJ).

What is your action?

If you check and he bets $3K, do you call?

[/ QUOTE ]

just tossing an idea here but obv you c/c all in on a (non club ) jack. this optimizing win vs weaker made hands + bluffs, whereas by check/pushing you're cancelling out the bluff part. So by c/c x2 you enable yourself to win when he is weaker but wants the pot, by c/r you win only when he semibluffs the draw but would've hit on the river (but if you c/f to a club it's all nil for riv..)

my action is still check/push turn, bigger stacks make this different, I like your play alot, but c/c two streets is a real viable alternative.

mgsimpleton

10-08-2005, 03:21 PM

problem with this reasoning - given that he called the c/r all in with jacks, we know he wasn't bluffing he was value betting?? so will not bluff the riv he will likely check behind.

normally a line i like is check call turn, 2/3 pot block riv but it's just that his turn overbet made this line so awkward because a river block bet wouild be almost pot committing... therein lies the problem.

BobboFitos

10-08-2005, 03:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
problem with this reasoning - given that he called the c/r all in with jacks, we know he wasn't bluffing he was value betting?? so will not bluff the riv he will likely check behind.

normally a line i like is check call turn, 2/3 pot block riv but it's just that his turn overbet made this line so awkward because a river block bet wouild be almost pot committing... therein lies the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think blocking the river is real bad if you check call turn; firstoff any river bet will give you sick odds on a river call, but if we block, chances of a river bluff raise are slim. so it'll be a fold but it'll make us feel sick, especially on a blank.

I'd rather check/call twice, if he's aggro enough to semibluf on the turn once we check river he will bluff again on a blank.

And with JJ he was valuebetting/protecting his hand,as said this is a SMALL WINDOW of his hand range, *thus we were all surprised hwne he called the c/r, because it's a small range with stacks this deep of worse hands which will call (KK, QQ,JJ) so you cant worry about the few times oyu lost value from the borderline made hands which will take free showdown.

All this said I still like OP's line best and one i use most oop w/ a big pair on a draw heavy board

BTW vanessa sign online.

mgsimpleton

10-08-2005, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]

BTW vanessa sign online.

[/ QUOTE ]

can't, kicked out of piso by crazy spanish roommates = i am homeless = no internet poker = no AIM. but if you have msn my name is the same as on IM at hotmail =)

Lucky

10-08-2005, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i dont like riasing with aces when the stacks are deep. i go for the limp rr and i rr big. if it gets called through then you have the power. no one is going to make a ballsy bluff move on you because everyone is afraid of the nuts in a limped pot. your much more likely to get called down are play patty pat with a hopeless hand that doeasnt know where its at.

[/ QUOTE ]

u really need to post more.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. I like. As you played pot, I usually fold turn, depending on how "loose/goofy", I may call. I'm not c/r-ing all in with those stacks.

I really like to limp angle with deep stacks and AA, KK. Bottom line, you're OOP and have one pair. The old adage "either win a small pot or lose a big one" is amplified in EP when you raise, get a caller or two and keep firing/calling big bets, etc.

creedofhubris

10-08-2005, 05:44 PM