Using relative position to clean up outs

I've been working more lately on being aware of whether potential bettors are on my left or right and using them to my advantage. Was this play a good use of position to clean up my overcard outs? Notice I got a free card, too, which was nice.

Also, cap the flop and lead the turn, or not? I felt like the flop 3-bet meant my T outs were probably no good, and very likely my Q outs weren't either, so I kind of discounted myself to maybe 11-12 outs and played it accordingly.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) internettexasholdem.com (http://www.internettexasholdem.com)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

River: (8.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

[Paxosmotic]

You /images/graemlins/confused.gifhave /images/graemlins/confused.gifa /images/graemlins/confused.gifflush /images/graemlins/confused.gifdraw! Why are you 'cleaning up outs' with &gt;40% equity? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

I have overcards and a flush draw. There is a possibility that I could win if I pair my overcards. The PF raiser could have a lot of stuff that I could beat with Qs or Ts. If my overcards are worth (conservatively) 1.5 outs each, then I have 12 outs, or nearly 50% equity. I only need another few % fold equity or more credit given to my overcards to make this profitable. What is the problem?

[PokerSparky]

I read Pax's post, and I'm a bit torn about the flop raise.

Here's what I know:

The pot is already large, and we want to do everything we can to take it down.

We would love to see the following hands fold: QJ, QK, KT, AT, AQ, Qx, Tx (with x being a card on the board), the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and some other hands I'm forgetting that may make redraws against us.

Edit: I went back and looked at a similar (not the same) hand from SSHE Pg. 158-159. In that hand there was a caller between you and the original bettor, so the raise can be for value and to clean up outs.

I'll let others better than I comment on this some more.

Preflop
I think this is fine. I don´t like a raise but i dont think it matters much.
Flop
I really think you should bid this flop trying to build a big pot and not scare everybody out with a c/r. The pot is not that big.

[Paxosmotic]

With that much equity, I will take my chances on losing the hand frequently. I'd rather have a 40% chance of winning 10 (EV - 4) bets than a 70% chance of winning 5 bets (EV - 3.5), even though it's going to bite us in the ass quite a bit. With this much equity and that many people to the flop, we should concentrate on building the pot. With the preflop raiser on our immediate right, there is no way we can raise without facing everyone with two cold, which is very likely to fold everyone out.

Thus, the play that is likely to put the most bets in the pot, as well as pause everyone at the table, is to bet right out into the preflop raiser. We have a much better chance of everyone calling one bet, and there is still a shot that he does the "your top pair is no good" raise after we bet anyway. After that, we can 3-bet or call, letting the other guys in for one more bet. I prefer the 3-bet, as the added deception (why would someone 3bet with a flush draw and overcards? maniac!) and the chance that even one person calls two more cold outweighs the obvious advantages of calling.

But in this situation, we're looking to make this pot as large as possible, with as many people in as we can fit.

[TomBrooks]

FLOP: C/R to clean up outs for your overcards good. There is no reason to cap it.

RIVER: Fold OK.

[POKhER]

call the flop, keep the field.

Notice he PFR and your outs are either:
Useless(i.e. QQ/KK/JJ/AA) or maybe you have some outs vs AK/AT/AQ and others.

[AlmightyJay]

Ew. I think check-raising is the opposite of what you want to do on this flop. That forces everyone to face two bets cold. I would bet out. You're hoping for a few calls, and then the PFR to raise you.

The flop raise has to be the correct play here but probably for value and in hopes of getting a free card on the turn and not necessarily "to clean up" the "overcard outs". You are still giving the three up front the odds to imagine a reason to stay in (1:14.5 pot odds versus 1:27 on a call) so, for the most part, if they wouldn't call a raise they probably wouldn't make the overcall.

I wouldn't necessarily be too thrilled with the 3-bet (bye, bye free card) but if a diamond hits on the turn I could get action from a lesser hand that MP2 is in hopeless love with (rockets?, cowboys?).

The check through on the turn catches me by suprise. Maybe MP2 was trying for a free card on the turn with two diamonds as well??? Is he trying to set a trap in order to get a bet (so he can raise) on the river??? Wtf does he have??? Any thoughts from our experts here? Should the bet be called on the river? Help this hopeless newbie out.

[imported_The Vibesman]

I see what you are saying about the hands you would like to fold, and the pot being big enough to try to take down now. But with a field this large, you're going to get value out of the flush draw. I would lead/3bet the flop and try to trap the field. I'm grunching, so I'm now going to see if I'm wrong on this...

With your flush draw you should have bet the flop for value rather than c/r it for protection.

[ArturiusX]

The pot is not small, there is no need for this play.

Bet, trap bets, get a raise from the pf raiser, and 3-bet, harvest more bets.

Your overcard outs are MUCH cleaner then you think here. Most hands that dominate you are seeing a turn anyway.

[@bsolute_luck]

clean up outs when you have a made hand, not a drawing one. meaning if you have A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

hmm...i wonder if we should c/r if we had A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif...?

[Matt Jenko]

call the flop fella and let all the others come along for the ride. You really don't want to be putting multiple bets in and have it HU when you are almost certainly behind.

Some of the advice on this thread is really horrible.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot is not small, there is no need for this play.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't get this. Personally, I bet and hope to 3-bet regardless of the pot size here, but wouldn't we be more likely to try and chase others out of a good-sized pot like this? If the pot was small, the C/R is horrible, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Some of the advice on this thread is really horrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Entity]

Bet the flop.

You're only worried about Q3, Q6, Q4, T3, T6, T4 staying in, which are all rare hands for opponents to have - so you're not cleaning up any outs. You don't want to make this a heads-up or 3-way battle when you need to improve to win. Lead out with that bet!

When MP2 raises, you have a tough decision between raising and calling. This board is fairly draw heavy, so they might stick around still. I would raise if everyone called my flop bet and call if there were only a couple other players left. Either way, you want more than one person to stick around here.

I think the guys who are saying bet/3-bet to build the pot are right. Let me see if I can quantify this:

If I get the three limpers to fold to my C/R, I may gain 3 outs, or about 12% equity. That means I go from 40% equity in an 11.5 SB pot to ~ 50% equity in an 15.5 SB pot (ignore the 3-bet for now). The EV is .5*15.5 - 11.5*.4 - 2 = 1.2 SB. So it costs me 2 SB to get another 1.2 SB in profit. If my math is right, the pot needs to be at least about 20 SB on the flop to make protection more profitable than pot building.

If I hope to keep the 3 limpers in the pot and can trap them for 2 bets by betting out, then I get an additional 10 SB in the pot for a 2 SB investment. My equity (assuming a bare flush draw) is about 40%, so 4 SBs put in on the flop belong to me for an additional 2 SB investment, so I'm doubling my money. If I can trap them into a 3-bet, I'm even better off.

So if my math is right, when the pot size is less than 8 times the number of players minus 20 (in SB units), you should build it. If it is larger, protect. When you have a flush draw + overcards that is.

[gharp]

Good post -- it seems like a lot of times these well thought out responses just fly off the front page.

[ QUOTE ]
So it costs me 2 SB to get another 1.2 SB in profit...

[/ QUOTE ]
But doesn't it just cost you 1SB? You're obviously calling anyway, but you're risking an extra bet to gain the equity edge. So it seems to me like the pot probably is the right size to make check-raising the right play.

[ QUOTE ]
Good post -- it seems like a lot of times these well thought out responses just fly off the front page.

[/ QUOTE ]

*sigh* You don't have to tell me. I posted a huge probabilistic discussion of WA/WB OOP strategy in the theory forum and got zero responses. There are a lot of good players here, but I think too many of them shoot from the hip more than they realize.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
So it costs me 2 SB to get another 1.2 SB in profit...

[/ QUOTE ]
But doesn't it just cost you 1SB? You're obviously calling anyway, but you're risking an extra bet to gain the equity edge. So it seems to me like the pot probably is the right size to make check-raising the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You could look at it that way. But in that case, you are also only risking 1 bet when you value bet and then expect a raise to your right. It's all in the timing. The question is: do I put in an extra bet or not? And if so, when? If I put it in first, I get another 2 SB in EV. If I wait to put it in after the PF raiser bets, I only get 1.2 SB in EV.

[gharp]

[ QUOTE ]
The question is: do I put in an extra bet or not? And if so, when? If I put it in first, I get another 2 SB in EV. If I wait to put it in after the PF raiser bets, I only get 1.2 SB in EV.


[/ QUOTE ]
The more I think about all this it's getting pretty murky -- there's a whole bunch of variables involved in making these calculations.

I feel like the reasoning your using when you calculate EV in these posts is sound, but I'm having a hard time squaring it with the idea that you should try to win the big pots immediately by knocking out players. The risk-reward part needs to enter the calculation, right? You can bet out and try to build a pot with lots of players, but it carries with it the risk that you'll be outdrawn (for a lot of money) when Mr. KQ, AT or &lt;shudder&gt; 72o sticks around because you offered him 12:1 on the flop.

Discounting the top pair outs to 1.5 each is like taking that into account, though just on the recommendations of SSH. I don't know what the true values would work out to be in this situation.

One could argue that the small extra EV in building the pot isn't worth the effect that losing the pot to a super suckout would have on your play. /images/graemlins/grin.gif