30/60 blind steal with the bad mutha [Archive]

10-05-2005, 02:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
canterbury 30/60 9 handed
SB here is a very aggressive, surly guy that i hate. folds to me on the button and i raise K9o. SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: 972r
check, bet, he check-raises, i call.

turn: 8

bet, i raise, he thinks and calls.

river: T
check, check.

thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you shouldve 3 bet the flop, if you call and wait til the turn to raise, a scare card can hit that may make your opponent check. I understand that once the villain checkraises he will bet practally any turn card, but you never know, he may check if an ace or king hits. You have a strong holding on the flop, and the villain could easily be checkraising you with any piece, so i say get the money in right away before a bad turn card muddies the situation. Plus if a scare card hits like an Ace or a King and you raise the turn he may not call a bet so you make no money on your turn raise, whereas if you 3 bet the flop he will surely call. Guaranteed money now is more valuable than "possibly" more money in the future. Given the way you played your hand, the turn raise is good, and the river check looks right.

flawless_victory

10-05-2005, 02:41 AM

against v aggresive surly sb you really really should threebet and fivebet the flop.
im not a fan of waiting for the turn for a few reasons (generally).

sthief09

10-05-2005, 02:56 AM

I think in general they are close enough in value that your best bet is to mix it up to get some folds the times you have nothing. but clearly it's better to wait for the turn with one pair than two pair or a set. you don't really want him folding in either case, but you REALLY don't want him folding when you have a set, so I always 3-bet the flop with those unless I'm against a LAG. that leaves hands like this for raising the turn but not always.

flawless_victory

10-05-2005, 03:12 AM

basically, i just dont want to slow him down in either case. i generally go to war right off the bat when i have the likely winner.

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 03:17 AM

I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

-J

10-05-2005, 03:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

-J

[/ QUOTE ]

thats just wrong id be opening both KJs and KQ from a non steal position and they are great stealing hands and K9 on the button isnt bad either wow you get called with ax he misses flop and folds or folds preflop saying you are dominated when stealing with KQ is just bad

NLSoldier

10-05-2005, 04:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

-J

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? You cannot be serious. EVEN KJs and KQ? if you dont play those when folded to on the button, Id love to hear what you play UTG.

Chris Daddy Cool

10-05-2005, 04:27 AM

i would bet this river.

jason_t

10-05-2005, 04:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, you are leaving money on the table. All these hands have value, even against weak limpers, and especially over random hands in the blinds with position.

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 04:46 AM

I could be wrong, but considering the high impact of the rake, I usually only take up A9s or better against the blinds or a pocket pair if I feel like taking a stab at the blinds. I would rather hold 77 or even 55 against the blind or even AT or A8 suited then KQ or KJ. This way, I can keep betting and most of the time I will still have the best hand on the flop, either the pair or Ace high, rather than bet my king high trying to get my opponent to fold his Ace high. My point is that it is usually going to be a head up situation, and K high hands arent very good in heads up duos, especially it is your opponent who holds the pair or the Ace high.

plus the rake, plus the cost vs reward. You'll find most guys hate loose blind stealers and in order to get them to fear your steal raise you have to give up a few blind steal opportunities. Now when actually do pick up a good hand and raise with it you'll be more apt to pick up the blinds without a contest and if they come back and play with you you'll have way the best of it rather than just a slight even undiscernable edge, like with K9. What you give up by chosing not to steal in this position you gain back on future hands.

-J

shant

10-05-2005, 04:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, you are leaving money on the table. All these hands have value, even against weak limpers, and especially over random hands in the blinds with position.

[/ QUOTE ]
This guy has made "online poker is rigged" posts in the past, as well as posts about how no one should play online because he can only be a marginal winner at small stakes because the money is meaningless to him. I'm not sure how or why he decided to start posting in Mid-High, but trying to teach him about blind stealing is going to be a waste of time.

NLSoldier

10-05-2005, 04:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, you are leaving money on the table. All these hands have value, even against weak limpers, and especially over random hands in the blinds with position.

[/ QUOTE ]
This guy has made "online poker is rigged" posts in the past, as well as posts about how no one should play online because he can only be a marginal winner at small stakes because the money is meaningless to him. I'm not sure how or why he decided to start posting in Mid-High, but trying to teach him about blind stealing is going to be a waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

thx for the headsup.

jason_t

10-05-2005, 04:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply put, you are leaving money on the table. All these hands have value, even against weak limpers, and especially over random hands in the blinds with position.

[/ QUOTE ]
This guy has made "online poker is rigged" posts in the past, as well as posts about how no one should play online because he can only be a marginal winner at small stakes because the money is meaningless to him. I'm not sure how or why he decided to start posting in Mid-High, but trying to teach him about blind stealing is going to be a waste of time.

[/ QUOTE ]

thx for the headsup.

[/ QUOTE ]

daryn

10-05-2005, 05:32 AM

bad river check in my opinion

daryn

10-05-2005, 05:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
against v aggresive surly sb you really really should threebet and fivebet the flop.
im not a fan of waiting for the turn for a few reasons (generally).

[/ QUOTE ]

i kind of agree with this too, and if it was me palying i would likely 3 bet the flop, partly because sometimes when i bet the flop with just overcards and get checkraised i like to 3 bet

daryn

10-05-2005, 05:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

-J

[/ QUOTE ]

you're folding KQ and KJ on the button when it folds to you?

go away please

DeeJ

10-05-2005, 06:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a book recommendation for you :

Top players recommend it (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060005726/104-1671904-5607931?v=glance)

The author states "Most people today misunderstand poker". I am sure it will be informative! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

daryn

10-05-2005, 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a book recommendation for you :

Top players recommend it (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0060005726/104-1671904-5607931?v=glance)

The author states "Most people today misunderstand poker". I am sure it will be informative! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

what a cool moment. i click the link, but for some reason the page doesn't appear immediately. firefox made me wait about 3 seconds or so, but it was a long 3 seconds... and in those 3 seconds while i was pondering which book i would see, a voice said "obviously hellmuth's book!", then it shows up, and a smile appears on my face.

all is well with the world

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 07:03 AM

I like to have pocket pairs or Ace high when I try to steal the blinds. That way I can continue betting and may get called and still have a good chance to have the best hand on the flop. With King high, my opponent can call me down all the way with a small pair or Ace high and I've made it correct for him to do so because I only hold king high. I'm not saying KQ and KJ aren't good hands. They can be in the right circumstances, I just have a personal preference of not liking to knab the blinds with them. I'd rather have something like 66 or A8s than a King high in these spots. You are effectively turning his weak call on the big blind (if he does play with you) with his A2 or A3 or whatever into the correct call with a winning edge heads up over your KQ.

thats just my personal preference. I didnt say it was right for everyone. no need to obliterate my screen name over it.

-J

jason_t

10-05-2005, 07:07 AM

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 07:23 AM

Stealing blinds is a volatile strategy that wins very small amount of money when it is successful and causes a lot of loss when it backfires on the original stealer. Most players object to having anything "stolen" from them, and will defend rigorously, with a lot of hands. I demand a bigger edge in my starting hand requirements before I endeavor in "stealing" someone's ante. By showing some restraint, I get more respect when I actually attempt it and dont get played back at as much. I mean, if you're constantly going after the blinds with questionable hands like K9, you're not going to make friends at the table, and you may blow your whole nights winnings by emotionally calling down one of the blinds with your "King high" and see he beats you with his pair of 3's. It's a volatile strategy and I try to avoid it unless I have a clear edge. K9 or KQ is not enough edge for me. For those of you that enjoy the psyche game of trying to get your opponent to lay down the best hand and call you down with the worst hand and enjoy gambling larger amounts of money with no initial investment, then my posts wont sit well you.

-J

Emperor

10-05-2005, 07:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually try to steal with the top 42% of my hands. Even less if they fold too much. If you get called, you are looking at your opponent who got dealt 2 cards. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up winning more than your fair share. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more hands and will payoff handsomely when you have a tier 1 hand and add to your overall EV. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that you have dominated, AND you have position, so raise it on up! There isn't much of a better spot?
-J

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Emperor

10-05-2005, 07:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Stealing blinds is a volatile strategy that wins very large amount of money when it is successful and causes a minimal loss when it backfires on the original stealer. Most players object to having anything "stolen" from them, and will defend rigorously, with a lot of hands they shouldn't. I demand the smallest edge in my starting hand requirements before I endeavor in "stealing" someone's ante. By showing no restraint, I get no respect and I get paid off handsomely. I mean, if you're constantly going after the blinds with GREAT hands like K9, you're not going to make friends at the table, and we all know poker aint about making friends. You may double your whole nights winnings by calling down one of the blinds with your "King high" and see he loses with his 72o. It's a volatile strategy and I try to pursue EV whenever I have a lsight edge. K9 or KQ are MONSTERS. For those of you that enjoy the psyche game of trying to get your opponent to lay down the best hand and call you down with the worst hand, thats called poker

-J

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP again...

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 07:56 AM

having fun?
-J

Emperor

10-05-2005, 08:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
having fun?
-J

[/ QUOTE ]

Kinda... but if you notice.. I gave you more +EV information than anyone else so far /images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you were playing shorthanded... lets say ooooh with 4 people at the table... What % of hands would you be playing?

Proper Blind Stealing play is different, but its a lot closer to my 4handed play than it is to what you suggested.

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 08:06 AM

was this a 4 handed game? 4 handed game would be a lot different. I dont remember the original poster saying it was a 4 handed game.

-J

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 08:07 AM

No, he said it was a 9 handed game. A four handed game is a whole different ballgame, as is a 5, 6, 7, 4, 3, etc. I'm not going to even bother to make comments as to what I might raise with on the button in a 4 handed game, because I know I will be blitzkrieged with a bunch of shitt.

good day

-J

JJNJustin

10-05-2005, 08:16 AM

DeeJ

10-05-2005, 09:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
KQ is not enough edge for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

is nearly 8 million hands enough to disprove this?

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

7,935,118 games 25.749 secs 308,171 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 44.4224 % 43.39% 01.03% { KQo }
Hand 2: 27.7934 % 26.75% 01.04% { random }
Hand 3: 27.7842 % 26.75% 01.04% { random }

Pokerstove proves you have a massive 17% edge in pot equity going in. For every $1 you invest you are getting a 10c return and for every $1 your opponents have already invested they are getting a 7c loss.. That excludes the benefit of having position, and excludes the benefit of any post flop skill advantage you might have over the opposition (please, no laughing at the back).

You may also be interested to know that, statistically, A9o is a worse hand than KQo against 2 random hands.

I've tried. If you still don't get it, whatever.

I'm done with this thread.
(as Diablo would say. All I am missing is a fan club)

10-05-2005, 09:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I like to have pocket pairs or Ace high when I try to steal the blinds. That way I can continue betting and may get called and still have a good chance to have the best hand on the flop. With King high, my opponent can call me down all the way with a small pair or Ace high and I've made it correct for him to do so because I only hold king high. I'm not saying KQ and KJ aren't good hands. They can be in the right circumstances, I just have a personal preference of not liking to knab the blinds with them. I'd rather have something like 66 or A8s than a King high in these spots. You are effectively turning his weak call on the big blind (if he does play with you) with his A2 or A3 or whatever into the correct call with a winning edge heads up over your KQ.

thats just my personal preference. I didnt say it was right for everyone. no need to obliterate my screen name over it.

-J

[/ QUOTE ]
JJN, I too am a very conservative blind stealer for some of the reasons you have mentioned in this thread. But I think you are overlooking a key element to a hand like K9. K high can win its fair share of showdowns also! In blind stealing situations King high has some showdown value, and I think you are underestimating this. I have checked many King highs on the end in stealing situations and the pot has shifted my way. With a hand like K9o on the button or any better king, against typicl blinds, I am raising every time becuz even if Im called there will be many times my king high will win at the showdown if no one pairs up. Ace high isnt always out there.

bicyclekick

10-05-2005, 11:05 AM

3 and 5 bet the flop.

The river is close.

ggbman

10-05-2005, 11:16 AM

I seriously want to start playing in games where 5 betting this flop is correct. I would have played every street like pokerbob did.

DrSavage

10-05-2005, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I usually dont try to blind steal with King high hands. Even KJs or KQ. Problem is, if you get called, you are looking at an Ace high hand or a pocket pair. An ace high will beat even good King high hands. If you end up going to the river, which you pretty much have to do the inherent bluffing and short handedness of it, you will end up losing a lot more than it is worth. Plus players will start to defend and 3 bet with a lot more and hands and will add to your overall fluctuation. I mean, with K9, there are so many hands that have you dominated, wouldnt you rather just pass and wait for a better spot? why play that crap.

-J

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh come on now, this guy has to be a gimmick account. Confess people.

bicyclekick

10-05-2005, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously want to start playing in games where 5 betting this flop is correct. I would have played every street like pokerbob did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, maybe part of the reason I can 5 bet the flop is because of my image at canterbury. Most of the players think I'm a boarderline maniac if not a maniac. I have played that way a few times when drunk, but they don't fail to see that especially lately I've been playing as well as I can...so they give me retarded too much action.

ggbman

10-05-2005, 11:28 AM

Its really weird, i seriously wonder how i would play live. I have no reason to think i wouldn't play well, i just have never played live for any significant amount of money. (and by this i mean people want to play $10 buy-ins) Anyway, yeah i guess image is important if your gonna put in that many bets on the flop, but you werent the only one to suggest it, so there must be something to it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

bicyclekick

10-05-2005, 11:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but you werent the only one to suggest it, so there must be something to it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I hadn't even read the other posts yet. But yeah now that I did, I'm pleased to see flawless advocated the 5 bet too.

I almost never wait til the turn to raise, one of the main reasons is sometimes you can get like 80 bets on the flop AND STILL get to raise the turn. Also if you have a decent but not great hand like you do here, if you get 3 popped on the turn your in an ugly spot. Especially if the 'aggressive player' plays well...and is capable of 3 betting a hand like T8 there.

The Truth

10-05-2005, 11:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Its really weird, i seriously wonder how i would play live. I have no reason to think i wouldn't play well, i just have never played live for any significant amount of money. (and by this i mean people want to play $10 buy-ins) Anyway, yeah i guess image is important if your gonna put in that many bets on the flop, but you werent the only one to suggest it, so there must be something to it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus in heads up blind steal situations like this; Very agressive players like the sb play like they are on drunken monkey tilt. He could EASILY 4-bet the flop with no pair.

-blake

shant

10-05-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Stealing blinds is a volatile strategy that wins very small amount of money when it is successful and causes a lot of loss when it backfires on the original stealer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have any kind of numbers to back this up, or are you just making results-oriented posts about your experiences playing 5/10 live?

B Dids

10-05-2005, 02:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stealing blinds is a volatile strategy that wins very small amount of money when it is successful and causes a lot of loss when it backfires on the original stealer.

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you have any kind of numbers to back this up, or are you just making results-oriented posts about your experiences playing 5/10 live?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's awfully charitable to suggest that Justin plays poker at all.

shant

10-05-2005, 02:42 PM

I will not eat green eggs and ham. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=3473801&Forum= ,,,,All_Forums,,,,&Words=&Searchpage=3&Limit=25&Ma in=3473801&Search=true&where=&Name=2367&daterange= &newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypre v=#Post3473801)

Ulysses

10-05-2005, 03:40 PM

SB here is a very aggressive, surly guy that i hate.

He quite likely hates you too. I just go crazy on the flop in this spot against a guy like this.

The river is close, but I hate having that close decision, I just like to crank a million dollars in on the flop so the river doesn't really matter.