Pedro Breaks Down - Again

[Bill Murphy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/preview?gameId=230520102

Surprise, surprise.

Bobgibsonandjackmorrisrule! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[Zeno]

Reds win anyway! /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif
They need to win tomorrow to build up some momentum on their goal to knock George's Money Boys off the hill.

-Zeno

[andyfox]

The Reds beat Greg Maddux. The Red Sox beat George's money boys. BTW, how much are Pedro and Manny making?

The key injury for the Yankees may well prove to be that of Steve Karsay. The 7th and 8th innings are bad ones for the Yankees, with the likes of Hammond, Osuna, Contreras and Anderson. Rivera might have another great year, but it's hard to save a game when you're trailing.

Plus it's kind of scary when your winning pitcher in game one turns 40 the following day, but he's only the second oldest pitcher in your rotation.

Ya think Roger will be pumped tomorrow going for #299 in Fenway? Should be fun.

Isn't baseball much more fun to talk about that Iraq?

[Zeno]

"BTW, how much are Pedro and Manny making? "

More than I! /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

"Ya think Roger will be pumped tomorrow going for #299 in Fenway? Should be fun."

Will Roger Doger celebrate by sliding a fastball under Manny's chin? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

By the way, the Mariners have the best record in the AL, at least for tonight. Two games ahead of Oakland, also. They are playing some very good baseball right now.

"Isn't baseball much more fun to talk about that Iraq?"

Amen. /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

-Zeno

[John Cole]

Andy,

Don't even think for a minute that the Sox can throw around money like the Yankees. Still, at the beginning of the season, Manny made more than the entire starting eight for Tampa Bay, and Pedro made more than Tampa's entire staff, I believe.

I never, though, quite buy any of the owners' poverty claims; I think the Red Sox ownership group could make a quick 50 million--or more--by reselling the team today.

[andyfox]

"I think the Red Sox ownership group could make a quick 50 million--or more--by reselling the team today."

Maybe. Then maybe run for governor and then for president. . .

[Dr Wogga]

....just keep saying 1918, 1918! Pedro Martinez is on the down-side of his hill - now he is breaking down a little earlier than his usual Aug-Sept meltdowns. Bad sign for the Sox - not that I care. Maybe Theo the adolescent GM can take his place in the rotation? I mean he's young enough, maybe he can work on a trick pitch - "load" the ball with some Clearasil from his pimples?
Hey Andy? Even in a sports thread you can't resist taking shots at our great president George Bush can you? Tsk, tsk.

[andyfox]

"Hey Andy? Even in a sports thread you can't resist taking shots at our great president George Bush can you? Tsk, tsk."

We'll you're not going to belive this, but I agree with your sentiments here. Baseball should be sacrosanct and not sullied with a political cheap shot, for which I apologize.

Now that I find out you're a Yankee fan, as I have been since 1960, maybe we'll have some things we can discuss in tandem. We can gang up on John Cole. Who wudda thunk it?

But the Yankees had better find someone reliable for the 7th and 8th innings. You and I can throw harder than Hammond and Hitchcock.

The Sox won 93 games last year and I think they're better this year. They're also having middle relief trouble but if Mendoza or one of their other guys finds a rhythm, they could be very tough.

[Dr Wogga]

....baseball IS the great equalizer. How bout that Mel Allen? Were you as affected by Mel Allen's passing as I was? I put his death on a par with the Mick's and Roger Maris. I have been a fan since I was a 4 year old sitting on my uncle's lap (no perv jokes pleez - and no, my uncle wasn't a priest either) and he would point at days on the calendar and I would tell him the Yankees (past and present) who wore that number. My greatest childhood memory was the first time my Dad took his 4 boys to see a doubleheader in the old stadium (the one with the posts blocking every 5 or 6 seats). I'll never forget the awe coming out of the runway behind the upper deck, and looking at this perfect green field, surrounded by the famous roof-top facade. So out of place - like seeing the scene in the Wizard of Oz when it went from black & white to color - contrasted by apartment buildings and dirty subways. Like an Eden in the middle of inner city squalor. Especially remember arguing with my brothers over whose turn it was to sit behind the pole - real pain in the ass because I liked keeping score and would have to depend on my brothers to tell me what happened if someone happened to hit a ball where my vision was blocked. Of course my older brothers wouldn't tell me until the subway ride back home that the 5-3 was actually a 6-3, just to see me get pissed off!! Great memories - sandwiches, thermoses, sunny afternoon DHs (when DH stood for double header and not designated hitter). Time well spent with 2 brothers no longer with us, but memories that cannot be erased. Not even by arguments about politics /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

Anyway, reminiscing about the present - Boston is staying close because of their offense. They could stay with the Bombers if their middle relief finally gets sorted out, because sooner or later the bats will cool off. NY middle relief is a joke - agree wholeheartedly about Hammond and Hitchcock. Yanks do need to trade for a lefty specialist that can get lefties out - Randy Choate ain't the answer for sure, and Hammond might as well be ambidextrous, because he has zero affect on lefty hitters. I must say that I am liking my Yankee and Red Sox under bets made at the beginning of the year. I think both AL East teams are flawed, the Yanks maybe a tad less flawed - unless Pedro is out for a long stretch, then advantage Bombers BIG! Neither NY or Boston is as good as the 3 top west coast teams IMHO - of course I will be rooting to be wrong! However, based on what I have seen so far, I don't think a wild card comes out of the east, so we better beat Boston.

[andyfox]

I remember loving Mel Allen as a kid (and disliking Red Barber). Later in life I heard Mel and thought he was a terrible homer, but he sure was The Voice of The Yankees.
When I was a kid they were joined by Phil Rizzuto, who I always thought was terrible.

And yes, I vividly remember coming out of the tunnel to that enormous green cathedral. The monuments were on the field at that time. I was at the Series game in 1963 when Frank Howard hit one behind them and Mantle virtually disappeared going back to get the ball. (That was a sad World Series.)

I saw Mickey hit a line drive home run, left-handed, over the 467 sign in left center. Next time up he bunted safely with two strikes on him. Take a look at his stolen bases vs. caught stealing for his prime years. A great, great baserunner.

Mantle's career is much more highly regarded these days, now that the sabrematicians have shown how important on base and slugging percentages are.

I think the tough moments (Rivera's bad throw to second; Mazeroski's home run; the 3 one-run losses in Dodger Stadium in 1981) stay with me longer than the good ones, although there certainly have been a ton of good ones.

Double headers! Now they have those day-night you-have-to-pay-twice travesties.

Since the 20-4 start, let's face it, we've been a bad team, unable to handle any of the good teams. The starting pitching has been mediocre, the relief pitching bad, the hitting bad. Bernie has hit the skids, Matsui hasn't been any better than the parade of left fielders over the past few years, and I'd never thought I'd say this, I hate to see Giambi up there with men on base because it's been such a struggle for him. (I thought, even when he was with Oakland, that he was the toughest out in the league with men on base.)

Anyway, it's a long season, hopefully we'll turn it around before too long. Like tonight.

[B-Man]

Don't worry Bill, Pedro will be fine. He's not even close to as durable as Clemens, in fact, he is downright fragile, but he always bounces back healthy and dominating as before (remember Game 5 of the ALDS vs. Cleveland (circa 1999)?). When he's healthy, he's better than anyone (and arguably the best pitcher ever)... he's just not healthy as often as he should be, unfortunately.

The Sox' problem is middle relief. As I eluded to in the subject, I am starting to wonder whether Ramiro Mendoza is still secretly on the Yankee payroll.

Speaking of middle relief problems, $42 million for Jose Contreras?!?!

[andyfox]

That game 5 against Cleveland was AMAZING. The previous game was the 22-7(?) extravaganza and I think game 5 was 8-8 or something like that very early. Nobody could get anybody out. Pedro comes in and retires, what, all 15 (or 18) batters he faces? I think that was the first year of interleague play when he had the 17 strike-out 1-hitter against Atlanta.

Mendoza goes through stretches where he pitches badly. If the sinker ain't sinkin', it's stinkin'. He was never a great pitcher, but he did have stretches where he was tough. He always pitched particularly well against the Red Sox (I remember one play-off game where he came in in a tough spot with the score 2-1 late and struck out the first hitter with a ball that bounced across the plate and saved the day.)

Contreras is obviously not a major league pitcher. Matsui hasn't been great, but you can see he's a major league caliber player. Contreras is not even close.

[Dr Wogga]

...he certainly has looked like a batting practice pitcher from the old home run derby series. However, putting a healthy Pedro on the same level as Sandy Koufax - BLASPHEMY!!! and this from a Yankee fan /forums/images/icons/shocked.gif Pedro is terrific, a hall of fame pitcher (even though I despise him - Clemens too for that matter), but he's no Koufax. Not that it makes him chopped liver, not that it demeans him, its just that Koufax in his prime was not of this earth.

[andyfox]

Loved the Dr. Wogga and B-Man posts, criticized the Zeno and John Cole posts.

Who wudda thunk it?

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[B-Man]

Given the circumstances, Pedro's performance against Cleveland was the greatest performance I have ever seen by a Red Sox player. Cleveland had rocked Brett Saberhagen and Derek Lowe (who had owned Cleveland until that day), and Pedro came in, injured and without his good fastball, and threw 6 no-hit innings to end the series. I'll never forget that game.

Nomar had an incredible series vs. the Indians as well. Do you remember in Game 5, Cleveland had finally had enough of Nomar, intentionally walked him twice, followed by Troy O'Leary home runs (including a grand slam) both times?

Unfortunately, when you are a Red Sox fan, these things never result in championships...

[B-Man]

However, putting a healthy Pedro on the same level as Sandy Koufax - BLASPHEMY!!!

Doctor, check the numbers, because your perception does not match the reality. Pedro, to this point in his career, has been a far more dominating pitcher than Koufax. Pedro is the all-time leader in winning percentage and adjusted ERA, is second all time in strikeouts per inning, and 3rd all time in (walks+hits) per inning. Hell, his un-adjusted career ERA is better than Koufax', and Pedro has played in a league with an ERA nearly a run higher than the league Koufax played in.

Koufax was a great pitcher, but the hype exceeds the substance. He is no match for Pedro.

[Dr Wogga]

...yes the Mick could bunt, and often with 2 strikes. If he got the ball past the pitcher it was over. I have heard he still has the fastest clocked time from home to first in BB history - 3.1 secs or something like that.

As for Mel "How about that" Allen, he was a great announcer and yes, I never thought of Red Barber as a good announcer. His voice had no excitement, and plus, he was a Dodger, second in Yankee hatred behind the Bosox. He was a homer though, I'll grant you that.

Funny, considering I am a "half-empty" type, I don't brood over the losses. Maybe because football is in full swing, not sure what the reason is. Mariano's poor throw to 2nd, the Maz homer over Yogi in game 7 in 60 (BTW, the Mick said that was the only WS loss in his Yankee career where the best team didn't win), the Brett 3 run homer off Goose in the AL playoffs, the Dodger series in 81, the Gibson series in 64, the Jack McDowell's relief appearance against Seattle in 95, Alomar's homer off Rivera in '97. I guess its like bad beats in poker or when a dealer draws out on you in black-jack in a high count - you tend to remember them more than the wins.

Question - favorite all-time Yankee game? Most peole say the Boston playoff game with Bucky Dent's HR (although Reggie's HR provided the winning margin) - I say it was a game 7 (maybe a game 5) against KC, in KC. The late Dick Howser had a 1-0 lead going into the top of the 9th and I think it was Larry Gura chucking the game of his life. He pulls him in the 9th, and the Yanks mount a rally - the key AB was Paul Blair fighting off pitch after pitch from a sidearm righthander (can't remember his name), and if you also remember, Blair played for the Yanks post-beaning and had a terrible time with righties in general, but sidearmers just ate him up. Anyway he dunks a hit into center, maybe 5 feet farther than Luis Gopnzalez GW hit off Mariano, and the Yanks go on to rally for the win. The last out in the bottom of the 9th was Freddie Patek hitting into a DP - how sweet. But the last memeory I have of the game was the TV image of Patek, the gamer among gamers, sitting alone in the Royal dugout after the game crying his eyes out. I don't know if you see that kind of emotion too much these days. Players don't have time to sit around and cry; they have to get to meetings with their agents, their publicist, their "crew."

Uggh, sometimes there really were 'the good old days.'

[Dr Wogga]

...that the lack of quality pitching in today's game is the reason for the runs scored to be so much higher.

[B-Man]

You could... but that doesn't change the fact that Pedro has dominated his peers by a greater degree than anyone else has, and that his ERA, winning %, WHIP, and strikeouts, even unadjusted, are better than Koufax.

I don't think it is an uncontrovertible fact that Pedro is the most dominating pitcher ever; I think it is true, but there are others for whom you could make a good case. However, I do not think those others include Koufax.

[andyfox]

I came home early to watch the Bucky Dent game. My son (now 25) was in his crib next to me when Dent's ball cleared the fence. I thought it was a pop-up. I jumped up and yelled, scaring my son, who started crying.

I remember the two plays Piniella made on balls he never saw. (Steinbrenner still talks about them in terms of reverence.) I remember thinking Lemon was blowing the game by letting Gossage stay in after he gave up two runs; I wanted him to bring in Lyle to face Yaz. Shows what I know.

My favorite game is probably the game Brett his 3 home runs off of Catfish Hunter; but Munson hit a long home run to win the game, I think 6-5. (Hunter, when asked after the game what he threw to Brett in his 3 at bats, said fastball for the first home run; curve ball for the second; slider for the third; I had nothing left, next time I would have had to throw him the glove.)

I also remember thinking Buck should have brought in what's his name, I can't think of it now, the Yankees reliever before Rivera (he saved all the wins in the '96 series) in that last game in '95, but he had pitched poorly the day before and Buck had lost confidence in him. But hell, he's your closer, let him close. I was right about that one. And of course Buck stayed too long with Coney that game. I forgot how painful that one was. We led 4-2 in the 9th and 5-4 in the 11th and didn't win.

Then again, I thought they were crazy to let him go as a free agent that winter and rely on Rivera. Needless to say, I was wrong on that one.

The game has certainly changed. A few years ago, during a mid-inning pitching game at the All-Star game, the AL changed shortstops too. I don't remember whether Nomar was coming out and Jeter going in or vice versa, but they met on the field, one coming out the other going in, and they hugged.

Can you imagine, in a similar situation, Yaz hugging, say, Piniella? Or Durocher and Eddie Stanky? I doubt those old days were good, but they sure were different. Some parts goods, probably, and some parts bad.

[Clarkmeister]

[andyfox]

OK, here we go. Pedro, in his prime, was (is?) a better pitcher than Koufax in his prime. Blasphemy, I know. Consider the offensive context, the ballparks they pitch in.

BTW, the bio of Koufax (the one where there was the minor to-do with the supposed agreement not to talk about Koufax's homosexuality), despite a bit of gee whizness, is a good read. Koufax belong to a golf club that a good buddy of mine belongs to and he has nothing but nice things to say about Koufax: he's a shy, unpretentious, polite man.

[andyfox]

Why should the quality of pitching be worse now than it was in Koufax'price. There were 20 teams then. Now there are 30, but the population of the U.S. has probably increased 50%, plus now the whole world is being scouted.

It's all about context. Otherwise one would be forced to conclude that all the greatest pitchers pitched during the 1900s or the 1960s, and that all the greatest hitters hit during the 1930s or now.