Folded broadway straight on the turn

[cferejohn]

Live $6-12 game at Lucky Chances Sunday afternoon. I get Q/forums/images/icons/heart.gif J/forums/images/icons/heart.gif UTG and call. Game had been pretty loose and not too terribly aggressive. 4 or more players saw most flops and while there was an occasional raise, I don't think I'd seen a re-reaise all game, except from me. There are a couple callers and MP (just sat down, but he smells tricky to me) raises. I'm not 100% sure but I think it was 4 players to the flop for 2 bets each.

Flop comes T/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif T/forums/images/icons/club.gif K/forums/images/icons/club.gif. I bet out my open ended straight draw. Another EP players calls, MP raiser raises. All fold to me, I call. Next card is A/forums/images/icons/club.gif. Made my straight but now there is a flush and a full house on the board. I check, EP bets, MP raises. I fold.

River was not relevant. MP shows 9T and takes down a pretty sizable pot with 3 tens. Don't recall what EP had.

I think my mistake here was not having a plan. If I knew I could make my hand and still be bumped off of it, I should have check-folded the flop. Once I made my hand with the pot as big as it was, I almost certainly should have seen the river and only folded if another club or another pair fell.

Thoughts/Criticisms/more attempts to decide what is worst between 'horrific', 'atrocious', and 'horrendous'?

[Louie Landale]

First and by far your worst mistake: you tried to "out tricky" the "tricky aggressive" player in such a manner that the only two outcomes are [] YOU fold or [] he backs down. It like laying down in front of the tanks in Tienemen Square ... and just laying there daring them to either stop or run you over.

Figure to show-down often against these players, usually by calling. Don't engage such players on their terms unless you are confident you can cower them into submission AND for some reason its good for you that they play more reasonably.

- Louie

[Play Tight]

Hindsight being what it is, perfect, of course you wish you had played this hand out. But with the limited information you had on the new player who pre-flopped raised and re-raised your draw I would of been gone also. This guy put a move on you, so to speak, and got away with it. But looking at all the possiblities of flush, boats, royals I think I would of laid down the broadway as well.

This being the first hand he played you did not have the info to know if he was holding pocket K's or even better on the turn A's. You also have another player in the hand on this sketchy looking board, which would lead me to believe he has the flush but is afraid of either a bigger flush or the boat. IMHO, good laydow.

[cferejohn]

I guess my question is, given the 2 flush plus the pair of the board, should I have just check-folded the flop? It seems to me that the only thing I would have liked would have been an offsuit 9. Ironically, *then* I would have taken it in the shorts, since the preflop raiser would have made a full house. That being the case, it seems like I was drawing to 4 outs that I felt good about, plus the very real possibility that I was up against a flopped full house.

I think I am used to being the 'tricky guy' at the table, betting out my flush draws and open enders, and when I saw open ended broadway straight, I just bet out without thinking "how happy am I when I do make my hand". I think this contemplating how clean your outs are is a blind spot for me (and I imagine many people), most often manifesting itself when your suited connector makes 2 pair only to have made someone else a straight. Its especially true in situations where you make one type of hand (2 pair) while your opponent makes another kind of hand (straight). Its much more natural to put opponents on cards that make a better straight or full house, in my opinion.

Thanks for the response!

Chris