Giime a line here...

[ggbman]

Villian is unknown



Party Poker 100/200 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, BB folds, Hero ...

[marsvolta619]

Bet the turn and bet the river. Against an unknown I'm seeing showdown here.

[DeeJ]

This raise means nothing. Reraise and see what happens. If he caps you might think about putting him on a J. I assume you're not thinking of folding here.... depending on the player I can call a cap and bet into the turn, or call it down. Heads-up I'm not folding AA esp against an unknown.

[CardSharpCook]

My S.O.P is to call here and chk/rz the turn.

[bicyclekick]

Close between 3 pop and call down.

[steveyz]

call flop, check-call turn, bet-call river?

[Jeff W]

I'd 3-bet and keep firing until he raises me again. Then I'd call down. If he has JJJ he is sneaky good.

[ggbman]

Does this give him a way to fold 77-99 too easily on the turn? I had been playing very tight.

[CardSharpCook]

Yeah, you gotta get more value out of this. 3betting and firing gives him an easy way to fold a bluff, a low PP, or even a 9. Basically, he is only gonna pay you off if he thinks you're bluffing the J. So, you get a little sneakier, call here, check the turn and let him get a little deeper with his draw/bluff. His raise here doesn't say, "I have a J." It is more like, "I can beat ace high". A 3-bet from you says, "I can beat 9X". Don't reduce this to merely, "do you believe me? Am I bluffing?"

[bugstud]

call/donk?

[SparkyDog]

Would you donk the river after check/calling turn? I can't imagine not donking it after underplaying our hand so much...

[SparkyDog]

I think I like shutting down and donking the river.

Checkraising the turn creates too much of a power sequence, that lets villian get away from some 9's and bluffs, and threebets his J.

I think Villian will keep on the gas with PP's, some ace-high hands, and 9's if you play meekly, but won't give a whole lot action with any hands you beat. So I don't see much point in playing the hand real strongly... but my analysis depends entirely on whether or not the Villian will go off for multiple bets and then call down with those weaker made hands I mentioned (namely ace-high and PP &lt; 99)

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this give him a way to fold 77-99 too easily on the turn? I had been playing very tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

My hunch is that the Party 100/200 is "semi-bluffy" and that your line will lead to getting calls from a pair that suspects you're full of [censored]. I don't have a Party account so luckily for you I cannot verify that assumption. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Your image isn't really a concern because you're up against an unknown who probably doesn't know you either.

[flawless_victory]

def threebet.
call down if he caps... if he raises the turn, that is nasty and v player dependent, but most likely call him down.

[sthief09]

if a 3-bet would make him fold 99-77, then you should start 3-betting AK on the flop whenever someone raises you. obviously that's not something you should do too often because people don't often fold 99-77 here because of the people who don't stop betting and raising with AK unimproved.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
call/donk?

[/ QUOTE ]


that would give us the worst of both, wouldn't it? first of all, a donk is just asking to get raised so you can't fold, but you do lose a SB against trips. second, a 9 doesn't raise the turn but he does probably call down a 3-bet (same goes for 99-77 I'd think). you also win the least against a draw.

[tpir90036]

Out of position I think it's close between "bend over and take it" and "turn an ace".

Seriously though, against an unknown I am seeing a showdown here... but I am not super crazy about putting in a ton of BBs. He might be on a draw so it's not totally WA/WB but I like check/calling the turn and leading the river if it's blanky. And if I get raised on the river I see how I feel.

[ggbman]

I dont mind him raising the turn as long as he does it with worse hands. I was thinking about c/r the turn, but i don't want to have to put 3 bets in on the turn here. I think showing this down is essential. Also, i don't want him raising for a free showdown with a smallish pair or AQ. I dunno, as routine as this seems, its a tricky hand.

[CardSharpCook]

Well, we're pretty obviously ahead here, so I don't think that "seeing a showdown" is an issue. Or more precisely, we're ahead around a guestimated 90% of the time. The questions are; Should we prevent a free turn card for QT? How can we convince him NOT to fold 9x, Low PP? How do we get the most BBs into the pot?

My line is call the flop raise and chk/rz the turn. In my experience, the QT factor is usually misplayed by the opponent anyway (they bet the turn instead of taking a free card) So the fear that we are giving a free card is minimized. Villian knows that we are calling his flop raise with AQ/AK, and maybe even AT, so he'll have no reason to believe he is behind on a low turn. At this level, our villians tend to agro-ness, and they think we are agro too. When we chk/rz the turn, they will still call down with many hands. However, "donking the river" is an interesting line, but I fear that this allows drawing hands to get away cheap (or pays them off even more). So, I chk/rz the turn. And yes, sometimes I might do that with AK making it occasionally correct to call down with 55 here.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
How can we convince him NOT to fold 9x, Low PP??
....
My line is call the flop raise and chk/rz the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how these two are congruent.

Our defense is our offense in this hand if he is going to bet all pairs/draws when we check to him. Playing it your way we run the risk of folding out hands that would have put in one more BB and open ourselves to getting 3-bet....which probably means we can fold... but then we aren't seeing a showdown now are we?

[CardSharpCook]

playing it passively allows him to put only one BB in on later streets with his lower pair. This way has the possibility of getting 3 BBs in there. Based on the action so far, a jack is unlikely. Most players smooth call the flop with a jack so that they don't scare off bluffers. Also, there are fewer hands with Js than other combinations that are still in here.

[Jeff W]

[ QUOTE ]
How can we convince him NOT to fold 9x, Low PP? How do we get the most BBs into the pot?

My line is call the flop raise and chk/rz the turn...

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing says "big hand" more than a turn check-raise.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont mind him raising the turn as long as he does it with worse hands. I was thinking about c/r the turn, but i don't want to have to put 3 bets in on the turn here. I think showing this down is essential. Also, i don't want him raising for a free showdown with a smallish pair or AQ. I dunno, as routine as this seems, its a tricky hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I feel like he'll bluff-raise the turn too much to fold, but he won't raise that much. you don't really gain much with this

[vmacosta]

I think if you just call the flop raise, CO is going to feel really good about his chances to take down the pot (after successfully raising out the BB and getting PFR to slow down) and will bet nearly every turn card if you check to him. Thus I really like a turn check/call and river c/r or donk, depending on how the board plays out.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
if a 3-bet would make him fold 99-77, then you should start 3-betting AK on the flop whenever someone raises you. obviously that's not something you should do too often because people don't often fold 99-77 here because of the people who don't stop betting and raising with AK unimproved.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not folding 99. More importantly, we can invert your logic a bit Josh. If he thinks you're the type who's capable of 3-betting AK then you 3-bet. If he thinks you're nitty, start calling and let him value/bluff a worse hand. So I guess I'm saying it really depends on how the OP has been playing/running.

[sthief09]

if he has no read on this guy it's likely this guy has no read on him. also, over a small sample it's pretty tough to distinguish between tight and nitty. I just don't see many people at any level folding 88-77 here, so not 3-betting is leaving a bet on the table that often.

if you want to go beyond 88-77, it's possible that he's raising drawing dead and will fold to a 3-bet but I think way more often he will have KQ, TT, 88 and lower and 3-betting will have a higher expectation

[ggbman]

I don't like the line i took, but i havent decided which line is best yet, i think calling the flop, checking/calling the turn, and bet/calling the river is best.

Anyway, i called his flop raise ane donked the turn which was a dud. River was another dud, i bet and he called. I licked my lips ready to have a big pair hold for the first time in a 1/2 game and the guy rolled TJ. Sweet /images/graemlins/smile.gif