Going Pro: The Other Side

[Supersetoy]

I didn't know if this was the right forum to place this in or not...it doesn't really have to do with pyschology, but it's got poker content, so I didn't want to put it in OOT.

Before you read, Cliff Notes: Friend drops out of college and quits job to play poker. He is now in jail facing a few years in prison and begging me for bail money.

Expanded version:

Right now: A friend of mine has been in jail since the 19th of September. This is the TWELFTH time he has been in jail. If you'd like to look him up, he's listed here: Inmate Lookup (http://www.metrokc.gov/dad/inmatelookup/SearchJailData.aspx)

Do a search for the last name "Kim" first name "Edwin".

Back story: 5 years ago I met him in college. Good guy overall. Huge fan of the UW Huskies (as am I) so we got along pretty well. I also came to find out that he had a gambling side too (which I will also admit to). Throughout college we became pretty good friends. He was going for a communications major and had a job writing for the student paper. I majored in Information systems and worked for the bank.

When poker started getting more popular, we were naturally drawn to that. I was first out of my group of friends to take the online "plunge" and also was first to try playing live too. I found there was a lot I had to learn (and paid for it). We were all learning together (a few of my friends and I) so it was a lot of fun to play against each other live, or go to casinos, or play online. At this time he and I were both working part time and going to school full time.

Fast forward a year I notice that the stakes he is playing for are getting a bit large. 2 years ago (when I was playing $.5/1 on party) I tell him about a $350 down swing I had between playing online and 3/6 at a local card room. He tells me he's "made a killing" playing the 10/20 online and is considering dropping out of school.

I tell him not to, as we're two years away from graduating, and that he should have something to fall back on. He tells me not to worry about it, and that's he got enough money to take care of himself. After a few months of playing at this level, he's earned enough to tell his parents about his new "profession" (who live in Alaska) who proceed to cut his tuition and rent payments. After this, I rarely run in to him over the next few months except for a few times in the local card rooms because he's no longer on campus. I ask him how his game is going and every time he basically says, "You know how it goes, up and down". But never any real stories of big scores like he used to tell me about.

During college, every February, my friends and I make a trip to Whistler. We're all fans of the bar/club scene there and also love snowboarding. Two years ago, on the last trip we took, was when I noticed how broke Edwin was. I paid for his entire weekend at a cost of $200. That night when we get back to Seattle, he tries to play me heads up for the money he owes me. This is when I realize what a bad player he actually is (going all in many times on inside straight draws, or just with Ace high), and also how degenerate of a gambler he has become.

We start at $20 per game and it quickly escalates to $100 per game as his streak of owing me more and more money continues. He leaves our place that night telling me he'll transfer the money over party. After that night, I don't see him for 3 months, but through a school directory, find his email address and begin to send him an email EVERY DAY demanding my money (weak-tight I know, but everyone he knew said they hadn't seen him). Another 3 months passes and I finally get the original $200 transferred to me.

Stories from other poker playing friends start to trickle in about how he owes everyone money basically. He borrows $200-$500 and then hides from that person. In December of this past year my parents receive a scary call from the Seattle Police. They don't disclose any information to my mom and she calls me, worried and frantic. "Is there something wrong? Are you in trouble with the law?" I am scared too, I assure her, "No, I haven't done anything that bad...recently".

She leaves me with the phone number of a Seattle PD Dectective, and I give him a call. He informs me that Edwin has been in jail for about a week now, and that he gave the PD my phone number as someone they could talk to.

He was wondering if I could post his bail. None of us did. Since December, he has been in and out of jail another 11 times. The only reason I'm posting this now, is because after another 10 months he is calling me again. Supposedly he is in really big trouble this time (and has been in jail since the 19th of September). From the voice mail he left me, it sounds like he may end up in jail for a few years after his next court appearance.

What was he doing? Broke and without a place to live, he was sleeping in the school's 24 hour libraries, sneaking in to dorms and sleeping below stair cases, stealing student ID cards to buy food, and what he continued to get busted for: Stealing computers and laptops from libraries and students and selling them at pawn shops. I know, petty crimes, but he was never "connected" to do other criminal-money making activities, so I think this is the best he came up with.

As for me, I graduated last year, played poker part time the whole way through (and still do today) and now use poker to supplement my income. I just wanted to let everyone see an example of what CAN happen if you go broke after dropping out of school. I understand this might be an extreme case for most of you but you have to realize: The only reason he's in this position is because of poker and how he thought he could consistently beat the game and survive.

[greg nice]

wow

mind blowing story, really. its good to see that you were smart enough to do it the right way, part time to supplement your income while going the conventional route.

i however did drop out. poker probably played a part in it but i had the desire to go my own way before i started playing cards. i also have the brains enough to drop down when playing bad and the experience enough to know i can beat the games.

HOWEVER, im sure your friend told you the same jibberish. so it really is irrelevant what is said. just comes down to whether the person is a moron or not. your friend is. i am not.

[Wally Weeks]

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason he's in this position is because of poker and how he thought he could consistently beat the game and survive.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are plenty on nondegenerates out that thinking the same thing. The major difference is that your (former) friend is a degenerate gambler plain and simple. All he did was use poker as his vehicle of being degenerate. Others use sport betting, horses, etc., as their means.

For some reason, I believe this guy may have had a good chance at being stupid using excuses other than poker later in life.

Wally

[nervous]

It seems that poker wasn't the only reason he got into this trouble. Could he not find a job elsewhere or go back to college?

This is definately a rare case and obviously it was 100% because he was a gambler. It really really sucks though.

Degenerate playing 50 nl at the local card room is a bit different to degenerate gambler playing 10/20 limit online. One is dealing with their addiction by "winning" small -ve ammounts. Other one is going to lose their rent money.

I do think that freedom and liberty to pursue happiness... the great ideals... compounds the broken nature of man. Yikes anyway.

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems that poker wasn't the only reason he got into this trouble. Could he not find a job elsewhere or go back to college?

This is definately a rare case and obviously it was 100% because he was a gambler. It really really sucks though.

[/ QUOTE ]

My ex-roomate and I (some of his closest friends) are going to visit him in jail this week and talk to him about this. That is, getting a job (somewhere hopefully) and getting himself back on his feet, maybe applying for financial aid...we'll see. Then again, we don't know how long his next sentence will be.

And you're right. Poker wasn't the only thing that got him in to this situation. His parents disowning him for his decision to play for a living basically cut out the only support group (other than his friends) he had. And when we couldn't "financially" support him any longer he had to find the means to do so himself. Why he never got a crappy minimum wage job, I'm not sure.

[captZEEbo1]

I'm not sure what your exact plans are, but I'd definitely not post bail, and I'd try to talk to his family and let them know he needs help.

[yellowjack]

That's really sad, but thanks for posting the story. Make another update when you can.

[Psycho21]

I think this story needs to be published in Cardplayer Magazine. All they ever talk about is how great the poker boom is for everybody, when in reality it only benefits casinos and an extremely small precent of the poker playing population. They never talk about the downside of poker, and how poker has ruined many lives. Poker is portrayed as everyone making millions playing tournaments. A lot of people don't even realize that a lot of these guys on tv are dead broke.

Very sad.

Has nothing to do with "going pro," though, and everything to do with addiction.

Maybe you could suggest to the police/prosecutor that they send him to treatment instead of jail? (Of course, this assumes there are inpatient programs for gambling addiction.)

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people don't even realize that a lot of these guys on tv are dead broke.

[/ QUOTE ]
Most of the "guys on TV" who are broke aren't broke because they're bad poker players, they're usually broke because they can't stop playing dice/betting on sports/making bad investments with "friends."

[Python49]

Glad you posted... guess this means anyone trying to go pro better read this... you'll go broke.

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Glad you posted... guess this means anyone trying to go pro better read this... you'll go broke.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not. I take it that you are...I'm not saying that everyone that decides to go pro will end up like my friend. As I stated in my post, this is a VERY rare situation. Most people are smart enough to realize, if they don't make it going pro, to return to either school, a job, or both.

Unfortunately my friend hasn't decided to do either. I am interested to see him (as I haven't in a very long time) but unfortunately it is going to be during visiting hours. I don't know what stance I'm/we're going to take with him, but we're definitely not going to post bail for him.

I've just seen way too many stories on this board about the bright side of poker and going pro that I figured I'd share my friend's experience. Because not everyone makes it.

[27offsuit]

Your post reads as smug, smarmy, unctuous and self-important. I can't believe no one has mentioned that yet.

You should post bail, you deserve it.

Good DAYSIR!

[ QUOTE ]
I've just seen way too many stories on this board about the bright side of poker and going pro that I figured I'd share my friend's experience. Because not everyone makes it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, it's not a matter of "going pro." It's a matter of addiction.

You should try to understand this, so you can better help your friend.

http://www.naspl.org/compgamb.html

The sections "Are there phases to pathological gambling?" and "How can I tell if someone is a problem gambler?" are clearly answered in your story.

[Perseus]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post reads as smug, smarmy, unctuous and self-important. I can't believe no one has mentioned that yet.

You should post bail, you deserve it.

Good DAYSIR!

[/ QUOTE ]


??

[smoore]

You don't mention what his bond is. If it's $2k I'd throw it and tell him that's the last time.

I personally would make him live at my house (you sleep in the camper, son) and go to work with me every day to pay me back. I'm a contractor so I can always use an extra set of hands for labor. Not everyone can do this, obviously.

If he does manage to reform, he'll have $2k (the bail money) to get on his feet after he gets out of prison. Should he choose to donk it up at the local 15/30 game there's really nothing I can do about it.

[beekeeper]

[ QUOTE ]
Your post reads as smug, smarmy, unctuous and self-important. I can't believe no one has mentioned that yet.

You should post bail, you deserve it.

Good DAYSIR!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. Also, you obviously don't know what unctuous means. Get a dictionary and a clue. His post was thoughtful and well-intentioned. Yours sounds like sour grapes.

[27offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your post reads as smug, smarmy, unctuous and self-important. I can't believe no one has mentioned that yet.

You should post bail, you deserve it.

Good DAYSIR!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. Also, you obviously don't know what unctuous means. Get a dictionary and a clue. His post was thoughtful and well-intentioned. Yours sounds like sour grapes.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, lets review....

"Do a search for the last name "Kim" first name "Edwin"."
--nice, give a guys full name and what jail you can find him in. That's what friends are for, right?

"I paid for his entire weekend at a cost of $200. That night when we get back to Seattle, he tries to play me heads up for the money he owes me. This is when I realize what a bad player he actually is (going all in many times on inside straight draws, or just with Ace high), and also how degenerate of a gambler he has become. "

-wow what a great, great friend....

"The only reason I'm posting this now, is because after another 10 months he is calling me again. "

-great friend indeed

"I know, petty crimes, but he was never "connected" to do other criminal-money making activities, so I think this is the best he came up with.

As for me, I graduated last year, played poker part time the whole way through (and still do today) and now use poker to supplement my income."

-this is the equivalent of stepping on your "friends" neck while showing everyone your big muscles at the same time. You call him an idiot and yourself a genius in one fell swoop. Well done.


So, there you go.

Unctuous: Having the quality or characteristics of oil or ointment; slippery.

And I don't get the 'sour grapes' tie-in. Why would I be sour because he pats his own back the entire post while ridiculing his 'friend' at the same time?

Maybe he should go SEE his 'friend' in jail. Oh right, they haven't spoken in a year now.

Maybe a Christmas card will be more appropriate....

[Abbaddabba]

I can imagine that guy's thought process.

WOW LOOK! Im up $2,000 today! At this rate, ill be making nearly a seven figure income!

It's a shame that he's in the gutter, but this is entirely because of his own stupidity and lack of self control. If someone goes "pro" as a medical doctor because they had a 100% success rate in applying a bandage to a knee scrape, would you blame their impending failure on the medical profession? Short term success in poker is probably easier relative to being a succuessful pro than applying a bandage is relative to being a medical doctor. Even a blindfolded monkey could win at poker over a single session if he was given buttons that corresponded to each action.

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, lets review....

"Do a search for the last name "Kim" first name "Edwin"."
--nice, give a guys full name and what jail you can find him in. That's what friends are for, right?

"I paid for his entire weekend at a cost of $200. That night when we get back to Seattle, he tries to play me heads up for the money he owes me. This is when I realize what a bad player he actually is (going all in many times on inside straight draws, or just with Ace high), and also how degenerate of a gambler he has become. "

-wow what a great, great friend....

"The only reason I'm posting this now, is because after another 10 months he is calling me again. "

-great friend indeed

"I know, petty crimes, but he was never "connected" to do other criminal-money making activities, so I think this is the best he came up with.

As for me, I graduated last year, played poker part time the whole way through (and still do today) and now use poker to supplement my income."

-this is the equivalent of stepping on your "friends" neck while showing everyone your big muscles at the same time. You call him an idiot and yourself a genius in one fell swoop. Well done.


So, there you go.

Unctuous: Having the quality or characteristics of oil or ointment; slippery.

And I don't get the 'sour grapes' tie-in. Why would I be sour because he pats his own back the entire post while ridiculing his 'friend' at the same time?

Maybe he should go SEE his 'friend' in jail. Oh right, they haven't spoken in a year now.

Maybe a Christmas card will be more appropriate....

[/ QUOTE ]
just stfu idiot... theres always someone trying to find something to flame about.

[SheetWise]

I read it same way as 27offsuit.

What was the OPs point?

[ QUOTE ]
The only reason he's in this position is because of poker and how he thought he could consistently beat the game and survive.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a weird conclusion. It could have been alcohol, drugs, girls, or any number of other issues he was dealing with -- how he dealt with it revealed his character. Poker had little or nothing to do with where he ended up -- if not poker, it would have been something else.

If he was a friend, he would simply take the call. But he's not a friend. He's here posting names and hearsay.

[beekeeper]

[ QUOTE ]



Unctuous: Having the quality or characteristics of oil or ointment; slippery.

And I don't get the 'sour grapes' tie-in. Why would I be sour because he pats his own back the entire post while ridiculing his 'friend' at the same time?



[/ QUOTE ]

wow...wow

I'll try not to be so flip this time. I think you were too hard on the poster. I think you didn't put his comments into context with regard to his intent. He was addressing his comments to all the recent posts about "wondering whether to go pro." I agree with you that it was not good for him to give his friend's name, but otherwise, I think you can read everything else he said as directed towards others considering going pro, and in that sense it is thougthful.

You do know the definition of "unctuous," but I would argue that you don't know how to use it appropriately. "Unctuous" refers to a manner of presentation, not to content (think of a salesman); it's not appropriate usage to characterize what someone says, but how he says it.

By "sour grapes" I was trying to imply that maybe you were one of the people who wanted to go pro and didn't like the truth of what the poster had to say.

In retrospect, I wish I hadn't been personal in my remarks, but you were so aggressively personal against the poster, that I ripped off a petty reply. Two wrongs don't make a right, so sorry for my personal attack.

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your post reads as smug, smarmy, unctuous and self-important. I can't believe no one has mentioned that yet.

You should post bail, you deserve it.

Good DAYSIR!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. Also, you obviously don't know what unctuous means. Get a dictionary and a clue. His post was thoughtful and well-intentioned. Yours sounds like sour grapes.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, lets review....

"Do a search for the last name "Kim" first name "Edwin"."
--nice, give a guys full name and what jail you can find him in. That's what friends are for, right?

"I paid for his entire weekend at a cost of $200. That night when we get back to Seattle, he tries to play me heads up for the money he owes me. This is when I realize what a bad player he actually is (going all in many times on inside straight draws, or just with Ace high), and also how degenerate of a gambler he has become. "

-wow what a great, great friend....

"The only reason I'm posting this now, is because after another 10 months he is calling me again. "

-great friend indeed

"I know, petty crimes, but he was never "connected" to do other criminal-money making activities, so I think this is the best he came up with.

As for me, I graduated last year, played poker part time the whole way through (and still do today) and now use poker to supplement my income."

-this is the equivalent of stepping on your "friends" neck while showing everyone your big muscles at the same time. You call him an idiot and yourself a genius in one fell swoop. Well done.


So, there you go.

Unctuous: Having the quality or characteristics of oil or ointment; slippery.

And I don't get the 'sour grapes' tie-in. Why would I be sour because he pats his own back the entire post while ridiculing his 'friend' at the same time?

Maybe he should go SEE his 'friend' in jail. Oh right, they haven't spoken in a year now.

Maybe a Christmas card will be more appropriate....

[/ QUOTE ]

He's an idiot. I still consider him my friend because we KNEW each other. We parted ways, went down separate paths, and now he's asking for my help (and a few of my friends). His bail is $5500. There's no way we're posting that for him.

I wasn't the one who offered up the heads up play. Obviously we're both big in to poker, and I can spare $200 to lose to him heads up. I know where the money went anyway. I was giving him the chance to play for his trip for free against me with my own money.

You can look at it this way: I knew him for about 4 years. Over the past year and a half we lost touch. He wasn't even able to afford a cell phone, let alone transportation. Let me ask you this: How do you keep in touch with someone that has no permanent residence, is avoiding you because they owe you and your friends money, and has no way of reaching you other than walking over to your place and hoping you're home? Could you remain "friends" with this person? Last I recall, to be "friends" with someone takes a concerted effort by BOTH parties. But let me guess, you let your friends walk all over you by lending them money and posting thousands of dollars of bail for them correct?

I guess I should've written "We were friends, he's no longer my friend, but is now calling me for help." Does that make you feel better?

My whole point of the story was to show what CAN happen (although EXTREMELY rare) if you drop out of college and decide to go pro. I included his name and the jail search in my post for the disbelievers. (I've noticed there are plenty of skeptics on this board, and have found myself questioning whether or not certain posters are lying).

And yes, great, I step on his neck and flex my muscles at the same time. Woohoo for me. Here's the latest update: The next time we can see him (my ex-roomate and I who were his "closest friends" throughout college) is on Sunday. I don't know of ONE other person in this WORLD who would go see him or talk to him. Not even his parents. But I apologize if writing that he is my "friend" is so offensive to you.

We're not going to post his bail, but hopefully we can talk to him...maybe get through to him. We will see.

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
If he was a friend, he would simply take the call. But he's not a friend. He's here posting names and hearsay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Refer to the post above ^^, and just as I stated before, how much have your "friends" cost you in bail?

Maybe I should go back and change "friend" to "acquaintance" in my original post. Christ.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only reason he's in this position is because of poker and how he thought he could consistently beat the game and survive.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a weird conclusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's a completely wrong conclusion - but I suspect it's the conclusion that makes for the cleanest closure.

[SNOWBALL138]

I doubt that most people would respond this way to going broke. However, thats not to say that there isn't a good message to the story you posted. Next time, you should probably keep your friend's last name confidential. I certainly wouldn't appreciate getting talked about in a public forum.

[Klepton]

bike joke.

[Al Schoonmaker]

I have never heard of an inpatient program for gambling addiction. If anyone knows of one, I would appreciate a PM.

This story is extreme, but less extreme versions of it occur frequently. I am very troubled by the number of young people who want to drop out of college or actually do it to play poker. If you want to take a shot at being a pro, get your degree first so that you have something to fall back on if it does not work out.

I tend to agree with the people who say his problem is more gambling addiction than poker. If he plays as badly as the OP described, he shouldn't play at all, much less as a pro.

I agree with the person who said that the OP should not post his bail. Doing so would be what is called "enabling." An enabler helps an addict (of any type) to escape from some of the consequences of his addiction. Enablers are NOT doing the addicts a favor. On the contrary, they are preventing them from getting the help they need.

I am not qualified to suggest a treatment program, but I do encourage the OP to contact GA and/or specialists in pathological gambling.

This young man has damaged his life, but he is still young. Many young people get back on track with the right kind of help. I hope he makes it.

Thanks to all of you for contributing to this very important thread.

Regards,

Al

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
All they ever talk about is how great the poker boom is for everybody, when in reality it only benefits casinos and an extremely small precent of the poker playing population.

[/ QUOTE ]
Poker is also tremendously entertaining for most losing players.

[27offsuit]

[/ QUOTE ]
just stfu idiot... theres always someone trying to find something to flame about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

[DWarrior]

Basically, the moral of this is: if you've played a year and think you can go pro on 10/20 online, you can't, you're just a lucky fool with a small sample size and you will go broke.

This is the one issue with me, I always question my game as to whether I won because of skill or whether the green session was just due to luck.

I also have a friend who got addicted to gambling and he's borrowing money from everybody. He borrows $50, starts at .5/1, and keeps going up to 30/60 thinking he's a rounder, he always goes broke.

I would say something, but hey, poker winners don't come out of a void, somebody's gotta be there to lose. Your friend had the pleasure of contributing to the poker boom and all the 2+2ers grinding it at 6BB/100.

[Perseus]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]
just stfu idiot... theres always someone trying to find something to flame about.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the irony of this statement is lost on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

nh

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I was giving him the chance to play for his trip for free against me with my own money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since you hounded him relentlessly by e-mail after you tracked him down, it is apparent that he wasn't playing for free. In other words, you simply fronted some money to a degenerate gambler--and then became incredulous when he lied about his plans to pay you back--even though you originally paid for his weekend because you knew he was broke.



[ QUOTE ]
Last I recall, to be "friends" with someone takes a concerted effort by BOTH parties.

[/ QUOTE ]

True...friends don't play heads-up poker with their broke, degenerate gambling friends for money their friends obviously don't have--and then harass their friends daily for the money owed to them.



[ QUOTE ]
I guess I should've written "We were friends, he's no longer my friend, but is now calling me for help." Does that make you feel better?

[/ QUOTE ]

I always feel better when people tell the truth.



[ QUOTE ]
My whole point of the story was to show what CAN happen (although EXTREMELY rare) if you drop out of college and decide to go pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

There may have been some point to your story, but this wasn't one of them.



[ QUOTE ]
Here's the latest update: The next time we can see him (my ex-roomate and I who were his "closest friends" throughout college) is on Sunday. I don't know of ONE other person in this WORLD who would go see him or talk to him. Not even his parents.

We're not going to post his bail, but hopefully we can talk to him...maybe get through to him. We will see.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that getting lectured by you will lead him to have some life changing epiphany as he is walking back to his buds on the cellblock.

[dankhank]

you can talk about this kid turning his life around all you want, but we all know he's sitting in jail right now figuring out how he's going to get a small roll together so he can go to the local club and check raise all the idiots who work for a living.

[rocketlaunch]

[ QUOTE ]
We're not going to post his bail, but hopefully we can talk to him...maybe get through to him. We will see.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can pretty much guarantee that the second he realizes you aren't going to bail him out or help him financially in some other way is the second he stops listening to anything you say afterwards and forgets everything you said beforehand.

[Archetype]

Wow, that was a real eye-opener. I am currently in my second year of University, and while I have never thought about dropping out to play poker professionally, I have never read anything about someone who did. Its really good to hear that you stayed the course, got your degree and supplement your income with poker. Thats exactly what I would like to do a few years down the line, and who knows, maybe when Im 50 Ill go pro :P

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

My whole point of the story was to show what CAN happen (although EXTREMELY rare) if you drop out of college and decide to go pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

There may have been some point to your story, but this wasn't one of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, since you must know better than me, please tell me what point I was trying to make, because obviously I have no idea. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[ChicagoTroy]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, since you must know better than me, please tell me what point I was trying to make, because obviously I have no idea. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The one you were trying to make is the one you were trying to make. The one you made was about the dangers of compulsive gambling.

Your pal didn't "turn pro" any more than a drug addict who drops out of school to get high more often "goes pro."

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
I doubt that most people would respond this way to going broke. However, thats not to say that there isn't a good message to the story you posted. Next time, you should probably keep your friend's last name confidential. I certainly wouldn't appreciate getting talked about in a public forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

His name is available on the web for things he has done (through the jail registry search). Anyone could have found him there. It makes no difference if I post it on a web based forum. Maybe 300 more people go search for him on that web site, but still, that information is available to the public.

I posted his name and the search to make sure that people didn't think I was just pulling this story out of my ass.

[ QUOTE ]
The one you were trying to make is the one you were trying to make. The one you made was about the dangers of compulsive gambling.

Your pal didn't "turn pro" any more than a drug addict who drops out of school to get high more often "goes pro."

[/ QUOTE ]
I've noticed that OP has ignored every post on this subject, choosing to instead concentrate on defending his own character and the veracity of his story.

More convenient that way, I guess - if he admitted that his friend actually had an illness, he might feel like he should do something besides demonstrating his moral superiority.

[SheetWise]

[ QUOTE ]
... just as I stated before, how much have your "friends" cost you in bail?

[/ QUOTE ]
Many thousands of dollars. They always pay me back.

[ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your post reads as smug, smarmy, unctuous and self-important. I can't believe no one has mentioned that yet.

You should post bail, you deserve it.

Good DAYSIR!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is ridiculous. Also, you obviously don't know what unctuous means. Get a dictionary and a clue. His post was thoughtful and well-intentioned. Yours sounds like sour grapes.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, lets review....

"Do a search for the last name "Kim" first name "Edwin"."
--nice, give a guys full name and what jail you can find him in. That's what friends are for, right?

"I paid for his entire weekend at a cost of $200. That night when we get back to Seattle, he tries to play me heads up for the money he owes me. This is when I realize what a bad player he actually is (going all in many times on inside straight draws, or just with Ace high), and also how degenerate of a gambler he has become. "

-wow what a great, great friend....

"The only reason I'm posting this now, is because after another 10 months he is calling me again. "

-great friend indeed

"I know, petty crimes, but he was never "connected" to do other criminal-money making activities, so I think this is the best he came up with.

As for me, I graduated last year, played poker part time the whole way through (and still do today) and now use poker to supplement my income."

-this is the equivalent of stepping on your "friends" neck while showing everyone your big muscles at the same time. You call him an idiot and yourself a genius in one fell swoop. Well done.


So, there you go.

Unctuous: Having the quality or characteristics of oil or ointment; slippery.

And I don't get the 'sour grapes' tie-in. Why would I be sour because he pats his own back the entire post while ridiculing his 'friend' at the same time?

Maybe he should go SEE his 'friend' in jail. Oh right, they haven't spoken in a year now.

Maybe a Christmas card will be more appropriate....

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. "Really" "good" "friend".

I take back my thought about Supersetoy being an ass. It just sounded pretty harsh how you wrote about your friend in the original post. These are sad stories to know about and be involved.
Funny that I just forgot that my uncle is a total degenerate at gambling and have even shot himself in the jaw. He is sad too. Leeching all relatives and getting drunk as often as possible.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Funny that I just forgot that my uncle is a total degenerate at gambling and have even shot himself in the jaw. He is sad too. Leeching all relatives and getting drunk as often as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It must run in the family...

Your post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=3598199& Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=3598199&Search=true&where=&Name=46448&daterange =&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post3598199)

Edit: I guess this link above got deleted. Yknow, the one where you're begging for $20?

b

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The one you were trying to make is the one you were trying to make. The one you made was about the dangers of compulsive gambling.

Your pal didn't "turn pro" any more than a drug addict who drops out of school to get high more often "goes pro."

[/ QUOTE ]
I've noticed that OP has ignored every post on this subject, choosing to instead concentrate on defending his own character and the veracity of his story.

More convenient that way, I guess - if he admitted that his friend actually had an illness, he might feel like he should do something besides demonstrating his moral superiority.

[/ QUOTE ]

What good is it to admit this "guy" has a problem? He's in jail, he'll be in jail more than likely until his court date, and then probably will be in jail for the next few years.

Would you like me to change the subject of the post to "The dangers of compulsive gambling"? Of course he has a problem, an illness, a sickness...MOST people have the power to stop gambling before they get in too deep.

What can I do for this guy? I'm not willing to pay his bail and otherwise, the best I can offer him is a visit. I don't understand how admitting to this forum that this "guy" has a problem makes any difference in my story or the responses to it.

Here was original thought:

A lot of kids on this board are posting about how they're considering dropping out of college. For my last two years of college I considered it too.

I haven't seen one post about how someone dropped out of college, they're now completely broke, and somehow hoping to get back to where they once were (college, crappy job, etc) Why haven't I seen this post? These people are probably too embarassed about their decision or don't have internet access (maybe they're in jail?) to post. I haven't seen one post like mine on here, ever. You never hear about the kids that go broke and complain about what a shithole their lives have become. Someone replied here that the story was an "eye opener" for them. Great, at least I got through to someone. What stands out in my mind from all the "pro" stories I've read on here are ones of "financial freedom", "$50-$200/hr playing SNGs with rakeback", "being able to travel the world". That's great for them, they've all been very fortunate. If I had know about 2+2 a couple years ago and had read these posts, would I be a college graduate or making 6 figures playing online? Who knows. But with (what seems like) so many long-term winners on this site, someone has got to lose, and unfortunately this "guy" was one of them.

Unlike these 2+2 pros I've read about, I make anywhere between $200 to $1500 a month playing poker online and live, some months I even lose. I can't imagine being "pro" off of these wages which is why I never did take that step.

As far as the others who replied, I believe I've answered their requests:

Those that nitpicked with on how my use of the word "friend" was incorrect, I have explained that situation.

Those that thought that putting his full name on an online web board (although it's already available online) I've explained why I did that.

Everyone has said he has a problem. Now you're asking me to admit he has a problem. Of course he has a problem, anyone could have told me that, but it's tough to help someone you can't find until they're calling you from jail. Of course I didn't see this a couple years ago when I was hounding him for money (figured he would get a job, maybe go back to school and I basically forgot about him until I received the calls) so yes, maybe I could have helped him then, but at that point many of us had just written him off.

[DWarrior]

Why would you post bail? If I had a choice between sleeping under stairwells of college dorms or getting a nice cell, I'd choose the cell.

It's not like this guy has a place to go. I could understand if he had a place and him being a jail really screwed things up for him, as it stands, jail isn't so bad for this guy.

[tek]

[ QUOTE ]
I have never heard of an inpatient program for gambling addiction. If anyone knows of one, I would appreciate a PM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hazelden in Minnesota (http://www.hazelden.org/servlet/hazelden/cms/ptt/hazl_255025_shade.html?sf=t&sh=t&page_id=26353)

Hazelden treats many problems on an in-patient and outpatient basis, including gambling. It's a well-regarded treatment center.

Ironically (or coincidentally considering the number of casinos around the country) their facility in Center City Minnesota is on the way to St. Croix casino in Turtle Lake Wisconsin.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Funny that I just forgot that my uncle is a total degenerate at gambling and have even shot himself in the jaw. He is sad too. Leeching all relatives and getting drunk as often as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

It must run in the family...

Your post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Board=holdem&Number=3598199& Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Ma in=3598199&Search=true&where=&Name=46448&daterange =&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodypr ev=#Post3598199)

Edit: I guess this link above got deleted. Yknow, the one where you're begging for $20?

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Man, the more you argue, the more it looks like this thread is about how YOU can feel superior.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you like me to change the subject of the post to "The dangers of compulsive gambling"?

[/ QUOTE ]
That would much more accurately convey the point of your post, yes.

[send_the_msg]

[ QUOTE ]


This is definately a rare case and obviously it was 100% because he was a gambler.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would imagine these will not be rare cases in a few years. i can only imagine 1-3% of these people dropping out of school will be successful.

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]
Man, the more you argue, the more it looks like this thread is about how YOU can feel superior.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you like me to change the subject of the post to "The dangers of compulsive gambling"?

[/ QUOTE ]
That would much more accurately convey the point of your post, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how I'm "trying to feel superior" here. I'm trying to appease everyone's wishes that criticize what I've posted here.

What else would you like me to change? Maybe if I become a degenerate gambler myself, quit my job, committ some crimes and go to jail, hopefully I won't look so superior in your eyes then? Maybe I'll do that. I apologize if my tone was so "righteous".

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to make you all as happy as possible. Please let me know how I can look less superior. I'll do anything I can.

[Aytumious]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


This is definately a rare case and obviously it was 100% because he was a gambler.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would imagine these will not be rare cases in a few years. i can only imagine 1-3% of these people dropping out of school will be successful.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what percentage of these people will end up in jail instead of simply getting a regular job?

[27offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]

I don't know how I'm "trying to feel superior" here. I'm trying to appease everyone's wishes that criticize what I've posted here.






What else would you like me to change? Maybe if I become a degenerate gambler myself, quit my job, committ some crimes and go to jail, hopefully I won't look so superior in your eyes then? Maybe I'll do that. I apologize if my tone was so "righteous".

.

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to make you all as happy as possible. Please let me know how I can look less superior. I'll do anything I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, you're like a fu*cking brick wall aren't ya?

Your post above is split into 3 separate sections, and here is how the 3 sections read:

Section 1: I'm just trying to make everyone like me.

Section 2: Sarcastic, wise-ass downtalking.

Section 3: But like I said, 'I just want approval'.


Nice.

[Supersetoy]

[ QUOTE ]

Section 2: Sarcastic, wise-ass downtalking.

Nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I'd like most of my post to be this. I don't know why I responded to your posts in the first place. You're just trying to knock me off my superior high horse, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a huge fan of that. The discussion has been quite hilarious though, as you continue to try and rip in to me at each chance you get. Show me what else I did wrong in this situation, because I'm the superior [censored] right? I'd love for you to continue because this gives me something to do at work.

[revots33]

Your friend is a degenerate gambler who ended up broke and in jail like many other addicts. I feel bad but there's nothing that unique about it, and nothing specific to the game of poker. He needs medical/psychological help to deal with his addiction.

However, I do agree with an earlier poster who said magazines like CardPlayer, and especially televised tournaments, play up the glamour and easy money aspect of poker, and barely mention the flip side. The poker boom is no doubt creating many gambling addicts on college campuses.

However, your friend did not really, "go pro" in my opinion. He just became addicted to gambling. He really had no plan like a true professional - he just won big early, got hooked, and lost it all. Sadly this pattern happens to gambling addicts every day.

[27offsuit]

[ QUOTE ]

Show me what else I did wrong in this situation, because I'm the superior [censored] right? I'd love for you to continue because this gives me something to do at work.

[/ QUOTE ]



Large fries with that, please.......

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Man, the more you argue, the more it looks like this thread is about how YOU can feel superior.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you like me to change the subject of the post to "The dangers of compulsive gambling"?

[/ QUOTE ]
That would much more accurately convey the point of your post, yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know how I'm "trying to feel superior" here. I'm trying to appease everyone's wishes that criticize what I've posted here.

What else would you like me to change? Maybe if I become a degenerate gambler myself, quit my job, committ some crimes and go to jail, hopefully I won't look so superior in your eyes then? Maybe I'll do that. I apologize if my tone was so "righteous".

I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm trying to make you all as happy as possible. Please let me know how I can look less superior. I'll do anything I can.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't make anyone here happy - they either are happy or aren't happy. They are providing opinions about the story you provided us about your friend.

Lately, I have been reading a lot of people "should I go pro" or not, and with most of the recent ones there was one who I thought should do it. He figured out his conservative win rate, along with his savings, and a year leave of absence from his job (which he can return to if needed), he has the risk calculated. Some of the people don't.

Sometimes, I think Cardplayer is an advertising magazine trying to keep people playing poker. It offers strategies to keep people playing. I don't think it advocates for anyone to play this game professionally; if someone wants to do so, it is that person's choice. Note: I am not criticizing Cardplayer...I read it...(I figure I'd get flamed for admitting so! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif)

The story was interesting - however posting his name was my only problematic issue, public records or not.