Question for those who believe in the Biblical God [Archive]

10-04-2005, 04:40 PM

This is not a flame or meant to be flippant.

Serious question in seek of a serious answer. Please, if your answer is based just on "faith", I will not accept it as a legitimate answer. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.

If a God created the universe, why would he want you to serve or worship him? Why wouldn't he want you to enjoy your life without living for his glory (which is already self-evident if he exists)? And why would he want you to be with him for eternity (if you "choose" to believe in him using faith) or not want you to be with him (if you use your faculties and decide that faith is not warranted)?

P.S. I promise not to even respond to your replies, so this won't turn into a flame war on my end. I just want to gain insight into how you rationalize these questions.

RJT

10-04-2005, 07:09 PM

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If a God created the universe, …

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This can only be based on faith. There is no other way to start. Of course, it is not fact.

I have a serious question, too: Do you understand what I just wrote above?

If one can’t get past the possibility of a God - everything else is a waste of time. From your other posts it seems that this is not open for discussion. If it isn’t for you then why belabor the issue.

If you do accept the possibility of a God creator, then your other questions can be answered (well, after one clears up the errors in your assumptions.)

If you still want the rest answer let me know. I’ll respond.

p.s. If you can’t get past a possibility of a God creator - it doesn’t have to be the one who did it in seven days - then would you mind answering why you can’t?

10-04-2005, 07:36 PM

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p.s. If you can’t get past a possibility of a God creator - it doesn’t have to be the one who did it in seven days - then would you mind answering why you can’t?

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I never said any such thing - although I've said there is no objective evidence for it, and I dispute the concept of the day-to-day God as described in the Bible. So I accept theres a possibility for a supreme being, but fail to see how the rest easily follows.

NLSoldier

10-04-2005, 07:58 PM

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If a God created the universe, why would he want you to serve or worship him?

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whe the [censored] wouldnt he? if I created a world and put a bunch of little n00bs on it i would want them to worship me for sure!

RJT

10-04-2005, 08:12 PM

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I never said any such thing

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I did not say you said any such thing. I said this:

“If one can’t get past the possibility of a God…”

followed by this

“If you do accept the possibility of a God creator…”

The reason I brought the issue up in the first place was because you said this:

“A "god" created the universe.

He sent his "son" to save us from our "sins."

If we have "faith" in this "god" we will have "eternal" life.

These are but a few of the "details" that trouble me. Are they so easily resolved?”

So, I also said this:

“If one can’t get past the possibility of a God - everything else is a waste of time…” before I wasted any time responding.

Now that you said this:

“…So I accept there’s a possibility for a supreme being, but fail to see how the rest easily follows.”

I will respond to your post. But, right now I have to attend a social function (Euphemism for "a few drinks with a for a few friends and a buddy,who finally got through his divorce proceeding after almost four years, yeah four years - the Judge was a real…) for a few hours. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jeff V

10-04-2005, 08:54 PM

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If a God created the universe, why would he want you to serve or worship him? Why wouldn't he want you to enjoy your life without living for his glory (which is already self-evident if he exists)?

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These two can go hand in hand.(worship & enjoy your life) It's not a slave/ master relationship, more like a Father & son. We can go to God and treat Him like our pappa or daddy. He also deserves our respect,unending grattitude, and praise. Because of His grace, and no other reason He's made it easy to have all the rewards of heaven. On our own merits we all deserve much less.

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And why would he want you to be with him for eternity (if you "choose" to believe in him using faith) or not want you to be with him (if you use your faculties and decide that faith is not warranted)?

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When we use our free will to love God it makes Him happy, kinda like when someone looks at you and you know that you're loved. If you have to spend eternity somewhere why would you not want to spend it with Him if you believe the above?

All that being said some people believe in God because they need to "believe" in something. I don't think these people have a relationship with God though, which kind of makes the whole thing seem shallow to some.(I think this is where alot of skeptics lump believers into) I know i used to think it was extremely ridiculous, phony, weak etc.

Some people believe because they don't like the idea that we're billion year old, grown up bacteria, aimlessly floating in space- a giant cosmic accident that puts our 86.5 years in and that's it.

I think alot of people believe because it's intuitive that this is not all there is to life. That we have a purpose in this universe, and we don't just rot when we die. Some go to God, others to budda, muhammad, heavens gate cult or whatever.

BTW feel free to respond.

Jeff

Siegmund

10-04-2005, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]

If a God created the universe, why would he want you to serve or worship him? Why wouldn't he want you to enjoy your life without living for his glory (which is already self-evident if he exists)? And why would he want you to be with him for eternity (if you "choose" to believe in him using faith) or not want you to be with him (if you use your faculties and decide that faith is not warranted)?

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Here's one possible basis.

Genesis 1:27, "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him."

We know from our own life-experiences that it gives us a warm fuzzy feeling inside when our achievements are recognized and praised by others. Each of us has certain people in our lives we wish we could have at our sides forever - usually people with whom we spend a lot of time, share common interests and views. Each of us has certain people in our lives we'd prefer never to see again - usually people who have slighted us or had some violent disagreement with us.

There are plenty of specific instructions in the Bible about particular commandments he gave, some of them with reasons, some of them just common sense, some of them with no explanation beyond "I said so." But all of these got added one at a time in response to people straying from the path. In the beginning there were no rules except not eating from the tree, and God came and walked in the garden and had a daily chat with his newly created friends to see how they were doing - until one day they hid from him instead of chatting.

You can argue the specific demands for particular kinds of worship are all artificial in a sense, not God's original intentions for mankind, not what he originally told us to do.

But it you believe in those 3 universal aspects of human nature I named - as far as I can tell they are sentiments shared by almost everyone in a wide array of cultures for a long time! - you might reasonably say, "How is it that everyone shares these common ideals? Adam and Eve must have had them and passed them on to all mankind. Why did they feel this way? Because they were made that way. And since they were made in God's image - it's logical to conclude that this the image of God's mind."

Disclaimer. I am not claiming to be a believer in the Biblical God. I was raised around parents who made sure I studied the Bible, and I was raised to think. The result was perhaps not what my parents or other believers would wish for.

David Sklansky

10-04-2005, 09:05 PM

"whe the [censored] wouldnt he? if I created a world and put a bunch of little n00bs on it i would want them to worship me for sure!"

But if I did it ingeniously, using methods that in some cases educated people could understand, I would disdain worship from people who made no attempt to learn more about those methods.

10-04-2005, 09:17 PM

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On our own merits we all deserve much less.

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See, I don't get this. How can we "deserve" less when he created us? How can you create something from nothing and then judge the thing as "undeserving" or bad or flawed or whatever on its own merit?

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When we use our free will to love God it makes Him happy, kinda like when someone looks at you and you know that you're loved.

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This makes no sense to me either. How can I feel happy that the thing I whipped up from nothing "loves" me, when I am the one who implanted its sense of right/wrong and its intellect and its environment, etc? Would you feel "happy" if a computer program you wrote printed "I love you" on your screen? I know you could say "free will" differentiates us from a computer program, but the program for our free will (whther that be our "heart" or "mind" or whatever) was programmed by God, not by us.

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I think alot of people believe because it's intuitive that this is not all there is to life. That we have a purpose in this universe, and we don't just rot when we die. Some go to God, others to budda, muhammad, heavens gate cult or whatever.

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But the fact that people "need" purpose doesn't legitimize their beliefs as to what the purpose is.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, BTW.

10-04-2005, 09:22 PM

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Each of us has certain people in our lives we'd prefer never to see again - usually people who have slighted us or had some violent disagreement with us.

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The difference, in my mind, is that I didn't create those people who slight me, and if I did create them, then I think the error would be on my part not theirs.

Lestat

10-04-2005, 09:39 PM

<font color="red">If you have to spend eternity somewhere why would you not want to spend it with Him if you believe the above? </font>

I hope this question doesn't sound snippy, because I don't mean it to be, but..

How do you know God? Is it by praying? How is it possible to know something that remains elusive to all 5 of your senses?

I presume beliefs are already set (at least by Catholics), about what happens if God doesn't like or is dissappointed in you, but..

How do you know you will like God when you meet him? And what if you don't? From some of the biblical stories I've heard, he seems like a pretty strict disciplinarian. At the very least a practitioner of tough love. You say why not spend it with Him? But are you really saying it is better than spending it with the devil?

Does it worry you that you might not like heaven? What if you find it boring or depressing? I mean we are talking for ALL eternity here, right? Exactly what is it about heaven that leaves no question that all good souls would want to spend eternity in?

These might sound like blasphemous questions. I really don't mean them that way. God gave me a brain and these are just some of the questions my brain poses.

Jeff V

10-04-2005, 09:49 PM

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See, I don't get this. How can we "deserve" less when he created us?

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This is where that pesky free will thing comes in, and I really don't want to use it as a crutch-so. I can only speak of my beliefs here so here goes. Everyday I commit a multitude of sins because i can think on my own. From objectifying, and lusting after women, to the guy who I cursed because he cut me off, little white lies-whatever the case may be. This doesn't take into account the things I did or the people I hurt various ways in the past when i wasn't so moral. /images/graemlins/blush.gif (definately not a saint but I try to get better) These reasons, and the fact that I don't think there's enough good works I could do to earn an eternity in heaven-who could?

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This makes no sense to me either. How can I feel happy that the thing I whipped up from nothing "loves" me, when I am the one who implanted its sense of right/wrong and its intellect and its environment, etc?

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Do you love your kids? Do you take joy in the fact that your kids love you? As to the last part of the sentnce-remember we get to chose between right and wrong.

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But the fact that people "need" purpose doesn't legitimize their beliefs as to what the purpose is.

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Agree.

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Thanks for your thoughtful reply, BTW.

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You're very welcome. I really think I can empathise with both sides here, as I've definately been on both sides. And I definately understand frustrations with religious ceremonies, people not practicing what they preach going to church just to be seen, or giving $$ to buy heaven.

It's not all like that though.

Jeff

Jeff V

10-04-2005, 10:05 PM

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How do you know God? Is it by praying? How is it possible to know something that remains elusive to all 5 of your senses?

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I might make a post about this, and remove all questions about my sanity. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Suffice it to say it was an accident, I wasn't looking at all. I really don't know how to explain how yet, but I'll mull it over some.

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How do you know you will like God when you meet him? And what if you don't? From some of the biblical stories I've heard, he seems like a pretty strict disciplinarian. At the very least a practitioner of tough love. You say why not spend it with Him? But are you really saying it is better than spending it with the devil?

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I'll break this into parts. I'm not catholic. I know I'll like God when I meet Him because i already love Him. The tough love part- This is mostly old testament stuff here which some is taken out of context. In the new testament God sent Jesus to be the ultimate sacrafice- to bear all the sins of the world, to be scorned, mocked, and killed by the very ones he came to save. Sending your only son to go through this should clear the un-loving part up a bit at least. As to your last sentence above. Absolutely not.

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Does it worry you that you might not like heaven? What if you find it boring or depressing? I mean we are talking for ALL eternity here, right? Exactly what is it about heaven that leaves no question that all good souls would want to spend eternity in?

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I don't have any reason to believe God would lie to me, so know i don't worry about liking heaven.

Jeff

chezlaw

10-04-2005, 10:23 PM

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I don't have any reason to believe God would lie to me, so know i don't worry about liking heaven.

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so how do you feel about those who don't believe being punished (or do you not believe they will be punished).

chez

Jeff V

10-04-2005, 10:35 PM

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so how do you feel about those who don't believe being punished (or do you not believe they will be punished).

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I believe they'll be punished in the sense that they'll be eternaly removed from the presence of God. If they don't believe in they'll be punished that's their belief, which they're entitled to.

chezlaw

10-04-2005, 10:42 PM

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so how do you feel about those who don't believe being punished (or do you not believe they will be punished).

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I believe they'll be punished in the sense that they'll be eternaly removed from the presence of God. If they don't believe in they'll be punished that's their belief, which they're entitled to.

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I'm never sure about this. You have god now, others don't. Both seem fairly happy with the arrangement. Are you saying that will continue ad infinitum afer death or will the non-believers be worse off in some way.

chez

andyfox

10-04-2005, 10:54 PM

"But if I did it ingeniously, using methods that in some cases educated people could understand, I would disdain worship from people who made no attempt to learn more about those methods."

I can understand you being unconcerned with their worship, but why disdain? Life is difficult for many people, it seems unfair or mysterious or ridiculous, or all three, and they "sense" a creator, or know just a little about you, and it gives them pleasure or solace to worship you. Sometimes it even makes them better people towards their family or others. Why disdain for people to whom learning about your ingenious methods means very little?

Lestat

10-04-2005, 11:17 PM

<font color="red">In the new testament God sent Jesus to be the ultimate sacrafice- to bear all the sins of the world, to be scorned, mocked, and killed by the very ones he came to save. </font>

I don't mean for you to give me bible lessons, but these are some things I never understood.

First, save us from what? From sin? Unless you're a saint, don't we all still sin?

Second, I never understood how or in what context Jesus is the son of God. Isn't the belief that we are all God's children? Yet, I hear of Jesus as being his Only son. I don't understand this.

Lastly, why did Jesus have to suffer so and die for our sins? If God wanted to save us, why not just save us? Why did He allow his Son to go through such torture? Do you think mankind understands any better now what God wants than if He chose some other means to inform us of his wishes? Can you see my confusion? You speak of a loving and kind God, yet this does not seem loving to me.

Why do you suppose God likes to test our faith so? Why would he put us on this earth without any logical sign whatsoever of his existence only to send us to eternal hell if we don't believe in him? Explain how that is a loving God.

Lestat

10-04-2005, 11:32 PM

I think what DS is saying is that any intelligent person who was exposed to religion as a child should eventually take the time to stop and think this through on their own, develop serious questions, and using intellect and information gathered through education, etc., be able to break out of the box.

But I also agree with you Andy. Beliefs, whether they are right or wrong, productive or destructive, can be a very powerful tool. They are not necessarily a bad thing.

RJT

10-04-2005, 11:55 PM

There’s two different issues here, chez. One, those who have not heard “The Word” and those who have heard it and disregard it.

Let’s say for the sake of argument -. Those who have not heard are exempt from punishment. (A whole different theme. Btw, I am not sure - I error on side of free pass.)

Now we are left with those who have heard and by “logic” have chosen to not believe.

So, basically you are saying “I chose not to believe, because MY logic, tells me it is nonsense.” Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.” Then you want to use your own logic to say to God this, “Hey God it is not logical for you to condemn me. You gave me free choice. I chose. I picked black instead of red on the roulette wheel. The ball landed on red. Give me my money back, I was wrong.” Is that in essence what you are saying?

To give you a further scenario, take the possibility that God exists. Then using your science, take the possibility that He started the evolution game rolling with one cell or whatever it is that science says might have started the rock and roll of life. Then think that at some point in evolution He implanted the Soul in us. Does this conflict with science? If so, then chose black. If not then chose red or at least green.

Either way, don’t use logic to say “Hey God, you f…ed me. You gave me free choice. I picked wrong. Give me another shot at it. Now that I have more evidence, I got all my money on red.”

For me, I am Christian. Hopefully, I’ll get to cut in front of the line. For those who don’t have such opportunity in life, I hope God says to them “You done good. You loved your neighbor. You weren’t an a..hole. You were christian to others even though you were not Christian and you didn’t get what My Son, Jesus said. Come in through the back door.” Who the hell knows, what it is all about?

Either way, don't use your own logic to tell God that He isn't being logical when it becomes convenient for you.

chezlaw

10-05-2005, 12:00 AM

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There’s two different issues here, chez. One, those who have not heard “The Word” and those who have heard it and disregard it.

Let’s say for the sake of argument -. Those who have not heard are exempt from punishment. (A whole different theme. Btw, I am not sure - I error on side of free pass.)

Now we are left with those who have heard and by “logic” have chosen to not believe.

So, basically you are saying “I chose not to believe, because MY logic, tells me it is nonsense.” Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.” Then you want to use your own logic to say to God this, “Hey God it is not logical for you to condemn me. You gave me free choice. I chose. I picked black instead of red on the roulette wheel. The ball landed on red. Give me my money back, I was wrong.” Is that in essence what you are saying?

To give you a further scenario, take the possibility that God exists. Then using your science, take the possibility that He started the evolution game rolling with one cell or whatever it is that science says might have started the rock and roll of life. Then think that at some point in evolution He implanted the Soul in us. Does this conflict with science? If so, then chose black. If not then chose red or at least green.

Either way, don’t use logic to say “Hey God, you f…ed me. You gave me free choice. I picked wrong. Give me another shot at it. Now that I have more evidence, I got all my money on red.”

For me, I am Christian. Hopefully, I’ll get to cut in front of the line. For those who don’t have such opportunity in life, I hope God says to them “You done good. You loved your neighbor. You weren’t an a..hole. You were christian to others even though you were not Christian and you didn’t get what My Son, Jesus said. Come in through the back door.” Who the hell knows, what it is all about?

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I was just asking Jeff what he meant. I'm not looking for a second shot, I know as certainly as I know just about anything that a good god won't punish me for not believing in him. You saw the argument, no-one argued and its watertight as far as I am concerned.

chez

Lestat

10-05-2005, 12:05 AM

"Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.”"

Maybe what he would say is, "If it was so important to believe, why did you give me no sign?".

What do you think the answer to this question is?

chezlaw

10-05-2005, 12:09 AM

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"Then if by some zillion to one chance God exists, you want to say to Him, “Hey, God you didn’t make sense to me. I chose not to believe.”"

Maybe what he would say is, "If it was so important to believe, why did you give me no sign?".

What do you think the answer to this question is?

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He gave me a sign (assuming he exists). He made me to understand that a god who punished unbelievers is morally repugnant. Hence it can't matter whether people believe or not.

chez

RJT

10-05-2005, 12:23 AM

I do know that, chez. And I want credit for editing. Cheers, buddy.

RJT

10-05-2005, 12:25 AM

RJT

10-05-2005, 01:33 AM

Jeff V did a good job with this in some of his posts.

Let me just say it my way, since you asked.

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If a God created the universe, why would he want you to serve or worship him?

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Who told you He wants us to worship him? The language that I learned was “One must do God’s will: One must love God and love one’s neighbor.”

If we chose to worship Him, it is in the context of thanking Him and thanking Him for things such as Life and loved ones, etc. Things like that. He does not command Worship. We choose Worship.

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Why wouldn't he want you to enjoy your life without living for his glory (which is already self-evident if he exists)?

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Who says He does not want to us to enjoy life? If He does not want us to go bang every girl that passes by, it is out of consideration for the woman. Are you using her? Or does she enjoy it as much as you. (I have been around enough to believe, that EVERY woman wants the ring. If you believe nothing what I say, believe this: Don’t buy what they say. -Probably only half joking here.) But as far as every day things in life, I think that it what keeps us going. When I go to Niagara Falls for example, I can sit there all day and enjoy it. Sometimes I think, this is from God. If I knew more about science, I would know how it all actually got here - the glaciers and all. But, tracing back to day one, I believe God started the whole shebang. So, I sit there an enjoy life and the world (I believe God started it in one way or another.)

Then there are the days that I curse God for life.

If I had kids, I can’t imagine looking at them and not thanking God for such a gift. Whether He had an immediate direct hand in it when I conceived or whether He started the evolutionary thing going from one cell (or whatever the theory is).

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And why would he want you to be with him for eternity (if you "choose" to believe in him using faith) or not want you to be with him (if you use your faculties and decide that faith is not warranted)?

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This is my big question. Why the heck would He create us? It does not seem logical that He did it out of boredom. We believe He did it out of love and to share His love.

Why do atheist have kids? They want to enjoy these kids and love them. Perhaps they can better answer that question.

If I were atheist, I wouldn’t want to have kids. I would want to go around the world and play poker and drink and have sex with all the different women (like Mick Jaggers’s “Some Girls”) probably end up in Thailand in an opium den smoking all day and having sex with all the Asian women there.

I do know this: If I were atheist, I certainly wouldn’t care about the ozone. I wouldn’t care about future generations and what they will come to know about science. If there is no God, I wouldn’t care how it all got started and if we can figure out one more thing about the key to the universe. My curiosity ends with me. If there is no ultimate clue to it all - if there is no God to try to find clues about - what is the actual prize? Say if one scientist figures out the whole code to the universe - what do you got? You got the manual to the universe. That and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee. Maybe if you can copyright it you become Bill Gates. If that is your goal, go for it.

NotReady

10-05-2005, 04:31 AM

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I don't mean for you to give me bible lessons, but these are some things I never understood.

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I can only answer your questions from the Bible. If that isn't what you want, just ignore the following.

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First, save us from what? From sin? Unless you're a saint, don't we all still sin?

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Yes, even saints. Actually, the word saint in the New Testament applies to all Christians - it was an identifier, not a word of praise. Read Romans Chapter 7 where Paul describes himself and the fact that he sins daily. In another place he calls himself the chief of sinners. Salvation is deliverance from the guilt of sin even though Christians are not free from committing sin until after death.

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Second, I never understood how or in what context Jesus is the son of God. Isn't the belief that we are all God's children? Yet, I hear of Jesus as being his Only son. I don't understand this.

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We are all God's creatures and in a sense are therefore His children, but the Bible uses the word children of God for believers because we have been born from above, which is a phrase referring to conversion. Jesus is God's only begotten Son in a special sense because He is also God - He had both a divine nature and a human (sinless) nature. The word Son is also used to describe Him as the second Person of the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

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Lastly, why did Jesus have to suffer so and die for our sins? If God wanted to save us, why not just save us?

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God is perfect in all His attributes and none of His attributes are in conflict. He is perfect love, justice, goodness, etc., in all He does. He is perfectly holy, such that the Bible says He cannot even look on sin. This is a figure of speech used to emphasize the serious nature of our sin. The Bible says God will in no way acquit the guilty or convict the innocent. Since all mankind is sinful, this presents a problem. God could sentence us all to condemnation without compromising any of His attributes. Therefore in order to maintain His justice, payment for sin is required. The Son volunteered to be that sacrifice. And God sent Him because of His love for the world. He is therefore just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

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Why do you suppose God likes to test our faith so? Why would he put us on this earth without any logical sign whatsoever of his existence only to send us to eternal hell if we don't believe in him? Explain how that is a loving God.

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I don't think God tests us except in certain respects. The kind of test you're talking about is irrelevant if you're not a Christian. As to evidence, there is nothing but evidence and that in overwhelming abundance. Everything that exists testifies of God and His nature. He has spoken to us in His Word. He reveals something of Himself and our sin through our conscience. He tells us of His creativity and artistry in the sublimity of the universe,the beauty of nature, and the good things we receive from Him. He has given us the ability to think, to explore His creation, to understand through science and art. And He sent His Son to perfrom miracles of healing and grace and then to give Himself for our sins.

Paul said to the Greeks in Athens:

Acts 17:
27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.'

We see the evidence when we open our eyes in the morning until we close them at night. But seeing, we do not see, because we "supress the truth in unrighteousness". We "love the darkness rather than the light because our deeds are evil".

whiskeytown

10-05-2005, 04:44 AM

I don't have an exact biblical quote answer, per se - but I have something close -

the Bible teaches that God created man for the same reason two people have children. To love and to be loved back - not to do chores or busywork - but to continue on, spend time with, commune, love, etc. etc.

With the downfall of man, the world became a selfish child, but one nevertheless still loved by God. To ask why the child just can't do what it wants and give up is not what the plan was - the plan was that love and communion, and the child cannot survive without the parent.

That's the choice - in the Old testament God would go off on all these wrongs Israel had done and how he was gonna level the place, smite their nation, send them into exile, woe and woe for their being disobedient. Then he does a 180 degree turn and says things like I would forgive you and embrace you if you would just change your mind and return home.

In the book of Hosea, he commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute who would do him wrong several times. This was God saying how he felt with the world - like he was married to an unfaithful prostitute - and in that book, God commanded Hosea to keep forgiving her, just as he does.

That's how I see it, anyways....but many people proably wouldn't care about or understanding my reasoning behind it.

RB

chezlaw

10-05-2005, 06:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have an exact biblical quote answer, per se - but I have something close -

the Bible teaches that God created man for the same reason two people have children. To love and to be loved back - not to do chores or busywork - but to continue on, spend time with, commune, love, etc. etc.

With the downfall of man, the world became a selfish child, but one nevertheless still loved by God. To ask why the child just can't do what it wants and give up is not what the plan was - the plan was that love and communion, and the child cannot survive without the parent.

That's the choice - in the Old testament God would go off on all these wrongs Israel had done and how he was gonna level the place, smite their nation, send them into exile, woe and woe for their being disobedient. Then he does a 180 degree turn and says things like I would forgive you and embrace you if you would just change your mind and return home.

In the book of Hosea, he commanded Hosea to marry a prostitute who would do him wrong several times. This was God saying how he felt with the world - like he was married to an unfaithful prostitute - and in that book, God commanded Hosea to keep forgiving her, just as he does.

That's how I see it, anyways....but many people proably wouldn't care about or understanding my reasoning behind it.

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

but don't you feel there's something terribly wrong in punishing your otherwise decent kid who doesn't understand the message.

chez

10-05-2005, 07:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I were atheist, I wouldn’t want to have kids. I would want to go around the world and play poker and drink and have sex with all the different women (like Mick Jaggers’s “Some Girls”) probably end up in Thailand in an opium den smoking all day and having sex with all the Asian women there.

I do know this: If I were atheist, I certainly wouldn’t care about the ozone. I wouldn’t care about future generations and what they will come to know about science. If there is no God, I wouldn’t care how it all got started and if we can figure out one more thing about the key to the universe. My curiosity ends with me. If there is no ultimate clue to it all - if there is no God to try to find clues about - what is the actual prize? Say if one scientist figures out the whole code to the universe - what do you got?

[/ QUOTE ]

I read a lot of your posts and think you are generally reasonable, but then statements like the above just prove to me that even an apparently reasonable theist suffers from brainwashing to such an extent that nothing will show them that there is anything interesting or beautiful or mysterious about life and the universe without their personal God construct.

Jeff V

10-05-2005, 09:56 AM

I really can't add anything here. Very nice response NR.

kuro

10-05-2005, 10:30 AM

The other funny question that goes along with this is why would an intelligent creator condemn one of his creations to suffer for eternity because he was duped by others or stupid enough to worshiping a false god (i.e. a rock)? It's equivalent to a mother beating a crack baby because the baby is retarded.

RJT

10-05-2005, 10:41 AM

I read a lot of your posts too, kid, and sometimes you are reasonable, also. But then you make statements like the above. (I am not being “cute” when I repeat your words. Well, actually I probably am. I can’t help but be. - lol - I should say my intent is not to be cute.)

You like to make assumptions and then be dismissive.

If you read my post and tried to get a feel for not only what I said, but what else it might have said you might have not assumed so much. I do indeed have curiosity, interest in the beauty and the mysteries of life and the universe. That is what I was trying to say, when I said I can sit and watch the Falls for hours on end. I have been there probably a dozen times in my life and never get bored watching ‘em. And they aren't even that great relative to other sites in the world. I can enjoy the Falls whether there is a God or there is no god. The universe – of course, I am in awe of it. How can one not be. I don’t know much about higher science (not really sure if the more one knows the more one is in awe or the less – you tell me – but I doubt that even the most knowledgeable person in science loses much awe). The awe exists with or without a god.

I guess I look at it like traveling alone or with someone. When I travel alone and see something great, I can still enjoy it. Sometimes, though, it is nice to have someone with you to enjoy the same thing. Turn to your wife, friend, whatever and say – wow, the Great Pyramids (never been there actually) better than I imagined. Or you can see ‘em alone and say it to yourself.

God is like that for me. I’d rather travel with Someone for the most part.

If the interest, beauty, mystery is enough for you in and of itself, great. That is easy for me to see how that can be. For me it falls short, is all. For me it is like traveling alone.

To use another analogy: The tree falling in the forest does make a sound if no one is around to hear it. For you – knowing the tree makes a sound seems enough. For me, if I don’t hear it: It is good to know that it made a sound, but I think, "so what"?

Then you often make statements like your response to my post and let them dangle.

You did not remark about my rhetorical question. If you decipher the code to the universe, what do you got? You got a manual to the universe. Now what? At best you find all the clues to sickness and longevity of life, stuff like that. If you are looking for longer, better life then you got something. For me, you got something, but it still is just more of the same.