View Full Version : Doyle's a scumbag?
ChicagoTroy
10-04-2005, 02:45 PM
I've heard a few respected posters say some negative things about Doyle Brunson lately. Knowing just about nothing about him other than what I've seen on TV and reading about his history with other Texas players, why is that the case? PM is cool if people would rather not publicly say, but I can't seem to find anything different from what I've read about other poker "celebrities."
Colonel Kataffy
10-04-2005, 02:52 PM
Doyle Brunson is infallible. I thought everyone knew.
Quicksilvre
10-04-2005, 03:03 PM
Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.
Russ Georgiev doesn't count.
SheridanCat
10-04-2005, 03:06 PM
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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.
Russ Georgiev doesn't count.
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Clarkmeister, for one.
Regards,
T
Quicksilvre
10-04-2005, 03:15 PM
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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.
Russ Georgiev doesn't count.
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Clarkmeister, for one.
Regards,
T
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I searched for his name in this forum, and all I got was a bunch of people wondering how old he was.
flair1239
10-04-2005, 05:26 PM
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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.
Russ Georgiev doesn't count.
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Clarkmeister, for one.
Regards,
T
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I searched for his name in this forum, and all I got was a bunch of people wondering how old he was.
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Clark on Doyle's scumminess (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3572927&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)
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Which players? He seems to be a pretty nice guy.
Russ Georgiev doesn't count.
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Clarkmeister, for one.
Regards,
T
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I searched for his name in this forum, and all I got was a bunch of people wondering how old he was.
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Clark on Doyle's scumminess (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3572927&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&vc=1)
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Sarcasm, gentlemen. Sarcasm.
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Russ Georgiev doesn't count.
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You stole my answer.
I think I recall Clark once said there is (implicit) collusion in the Big Game to such a degree that no non-regulars can win.
I'm not sure it's sarcasm. Many players feel this way.
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I'm not sure it's sarcasm.
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I don't think it was, which is why I posted what I did two posts ago.
SheridanCat
10-05-2005, 10:02 AM
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I'm not sure it's sarcasm.
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I don't think it was, which is why I posted what I did two posts ago.
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I didn't think it was sarcasm either. However, I didn't really care, since the moral character of big players is irrelevant to me. I'll never see them in a cash game. Furthermore, any non-regular who sits in the Big Game and doesn't know about the implicit collusion is a fool.
Regards,
T
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I'm not sure it's sarcasm.
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I don't think it was, which is why I posted what I did two posts ago.
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I didn't think it was sarcasm either. However, I didn't really care, since the moral character of big players is irrelevant to me. I'll never see them in a cash game. Furthermore, any non-regular who sits in the Big Game and doesn't know about the implicit collusion is a fool.
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Their moral character is still relevant to me even though I'll never play with them. If someone is stealing money, I want them to be punished, even if I'm not the victim.
Jorge10
10-05-2005, 03:03 PM
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I think I recall Clark once said there is (implicit) collusion in the Big Game to such a degree that no non-regulars can win.
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Did anyone that is commenting on Brunson ever read ace on the river? If had you would have read how Barry Greenstein felt the same exact way you guys did and wouldnt go to vegas at all for that reason also the rumor of chip and Brunson cheating has been going on for years, but its obviously not true. Barry plays in the big game now, and if he plays there then its obviously safe as he has no ties whatsoever to vegas, he doesnt live in vegas and only goes there occasionally to play. He is not a regular and if there was any proof to what you guys said, he would get cleaned out, but if you read his book you will see that he does rather well in it. Think about that before screaming collusion.
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Did anyone that is commenting on Brunson ever read ace on the river? If had you would have read how Barry Greenstein felt the same exact way you guys did and wouldnt go to vegas at all for that reason
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What section is this in?
Jorge10
10-05-2005, 03:53 PM
Cant recall the exact page number or anything, but its the part of the book where he talks about his life.
Also forgot to say one more thing, who do you think feeds the players in the big game?
The answer is wealthy businessmen who are out to dump a few hundred thousand and pros who win at smaller levels and are taking shots. Now do you think the average pro is just going to admit that someone is better than him? Most wont, rather than saying damn chip outplayed me I gotta work on my game, they say, he has to be cheating he cant beat me. I see that a lot of that when I play shooting games online such as unreal tournament, some people just cant believe that others are better than them and immediately start saying that they are being cheated. Its the same logic.
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Cant recall the exact page number or anything, but its the part of the book where he talks about his life.
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Do you mean the long early part where he's giving a biography of how he got to where he is today?
Ed Miller
10-05-2005, 04:50 PM
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I see that a lot of that when I play shooting games online such as unreal tournament, some people just cant believe that others are better than them and immediately start saying that they are being cheated. Its the same logic.
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While it is paranoid to assume you are always being cheated in poker, it is incredibly naive to assume that cheating doesn't happen, especially at the high stakes.
4_2_it
10-05-2005, 05:03 PM
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While it is paranoid to assume you are always being cheated in poker, it is incredibly naive to assume that cheating doesn't happen, especially at the high stakes.
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Are you implying "Matador-like" cheating or more subtle forms like soft playing other pros?
cwsiggy
10-05-2005, 05:10 PM
It's like the Nature channel, you don't see pirhanna eating each other do you?
Ed Miller
10-05-2005, 05:46 PM
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While it is paranoid to assume you are always being cheated in poker, it is incredibly naive to assume that cheating doesn't happen, especially at the high stakes.
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Are you implying "Matador-like" cheating or more subtle forms like soft playing other pros?
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I don't know what "Matador-like" means. But I mean that there are people playing poker every day with the intention of cheating for profit. I think those people are greatly in the minority, and I think that if you sit in any small or medium stakes game, you could play your whole life, make a lot of money, and not worry too much about cheating. But as the stakes increase, the incentive to cheat increases, and with it, the concentration of cheaters also increases.
Basically, I'm saying this. If you want to play $40-$80 limit in LA, $15-$30 limit on Party, or $5-$10 blind no limit, then you basically don't have to worry much about cheating. You might get cheated once in a while, but overall it's not going to impact your bottom line much.
But if you waltz into a $300-$600 mixed game or a big no limit game where you don't know the players (or don't know them well), and you bring your $200k bankroll and start playing regularly, you're going to look like a mark to someone. And if you stick around long enough, some people are going to treat you like a mark until you wise up. That's not just the way poker is... that's the way life is.
Jorge10
10-05-2005, 06:24 PM
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But if you waltz into a $300-$600 mixed game or a big no limit game where you don't know the players (or don't know them well), and you bring your $200k bankroll and start playing regularly, you're going to look like a mark to someone. And if you stick around long enough, some people are going to treat you like a mark until you wise up. That's not just the way poker is... that's the way life is.
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In a big casino?
I could see it happening in games that arent watched, but the big casino games are. In the Bellagio being cheated? Seems kind of crazy in my opinion, I mean why? You can make so much more by playing fair and crushing the same people over and over.
Ed Miller
10-05-2005, 06:35 PM
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In a big casino?
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Yes.
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I could see it happening in games that arent watched, but the big casino games are. In the Bellagio being cheated? Seems kind of crazy in my opinion, I mean why?
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I'm not talking about any one specific poker room. I'm saying that there's lots of money to be made cheating high level games, and you're crazy if you think no one is attempting to do it.
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You can make so much more by playing fair and crushing the same people over and over.
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I don't cheat, so yes, I make more playing fair. But cheaters make way more than they would if they didn't cheat. That's why they cheat.
Again, I don't mean to be alarmist at all. Most poker games are 100% square, especially ones at small and medium stakes. I don't feel I've ever really been cheated. And if I have, I've done fine in small and medium games despite being cheated.
But your attitude is very naive.
Ed Miller
10-05-2005, 06:46 PM
If you think it's improbable that people would try to cheat while "being watched" in a casino, look at the stock market. The SEC & Company "watches" the stock market a lot more closely than anyone watches poker games. And even Martha Stewart tried to cheat the stock market.
In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.
Dan Mezick
10-05-2005, 07:33 PM
Doyle ....and the market...hmmm...there has to be a real good, WPTE joke in here somewhere.
Luv2DriveTT
10-05-2005, 08:22 PM
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In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.
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no comment, other than your post was truly fantastic on multiple levels.
TT /images/graemlins/club.gif
bernie
10-05-2005, 09:42 PM
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some people are going to treat you like a mark until you wise up.
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Then they may ask you to join the team... /images/graemlins/grin.gif
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I don't know what "Matador-like" means
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Refers to the TV series 'tilt'.(ring a bell?) He'd load the table with 'his' players.
b
Jorge10
10-05-2005, 10:19 PM
I guess I didnt clarify, this thread was about the most famous players cheating, which I said of course not.
I do agree with what you said I mean im sure people try to cheat all the time at the higher levels, not just in poker, but any of the casino games in general. What im trying to say is that the players that have been around for a while dont cheat. Thats why I said why would they cheat.
I was not specific enough.
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Thats why I said why would they cheat.
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To make money? Even slight or merely understood collusion is very valuable at $4000/8000.
Jorge10
10-05-2005, 11:16 PM
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To make money? Even slight or merely understood collusion is very valuable at $4000/8000.
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They are going to win anyway, why not just do it fairly, im just saying they are going to win anyway so they dont need any cheating. Also people always find out, I mean no new players would be able to survive at those levels, it would be found out if everyone was cheating.
Howard Burroughs
10-05-2005, 11:21 PM
"What section is this in?"
Page 25.
Barry says......
"Years later when I finally took a shot at the bigger game, Chip and Doyle were extremely nice to me. I came to realize that great players are nice to new players. They don't win by cheating, but by getting people involved. A good gambler gets people to gamble with him and finds situations where he can beat them out of their money. In the course of playing with them, it also became obvious to me that Chip and Doyle were not partners, but were friendly rivals."
Best of Luck
Howard
Thanks. So Barry's official position is that D+C are not cheaters.
Barry talks a lot about creating good gambling environments for fish.
flair1239
10-06-2005, 01:45 AM
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If you think it's improbable that people would try to cheat while "being watched" in a casino, look at the stock market. The SEC & Company "watches" the stock market a lot more closely than anyone watches poker games. And even Martha Stewart tried to cheat the stock market.
In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.
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This is a bit slimy.
I don't know Doyle Brunson, and don't really care what he does or what he has done. Nor do I really care what any player does as long as I am not affected.
But for a person of your status, to throw around such thinly veiled insinuations, without any proof to back it up...borders on slander.
This is kind of beneath you.
I didn't take it as a sling at Doyle so much as a sling at Mid-to-High-Limit_Poker_Players.
flair1239
10-06-2005, 02:07 AM
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If you think it's improbable that people would try to cheat while "being watched" in a casino, look at the stock market. The SEC & Company "watches" the stock market a lot more closely than anyone watches poker games. And even Martha Stewart tried to cheat the stock market.
In fact, there are no doubt some people trying to cheat both at poker and at the stock market. It's just the way some people are.
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This is a bit slimy.
I don't know Doyle Brunson, and don't really care what he does or what he has done. Nor do I really care what any player does as long as I am not affected.
But for a person of your status, to throw around such thinly veiled insinuations, without any proof to back it up...borders on slander.
This is kind of beneath you.
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I took the stock market reference as a jab at the rumour that Brunson was part of a group to purchase the WPT from Lyle Bermans group.
No wrong doing has been proved. The reference and implications of cheating were slimy and out of line.
Ed Miller
10-06-2005, 02:31 PM
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I took the stock market reference as a jab at the rumour that Brunson was part of a group to purchase the WPT from Lyle Bermans group.
No wrong doing has been proved. The reference and implications of cheating were slimy and out of line.
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You jumped to conclusions. I don't know anything about Doyle Brunson except what is in his books.
flair1239
10-06-2005, 02:42 PM
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I took the stock market reference as a jab at the rumour that Brunson was part of a group to purchase the WPT from Lyle Bermans group.
No wrong doing has been proved. The reference and implications of cheating were slimy and out of line.
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You jumped to conclusions. I don't know anything about Doyle Brunson except what is in his books.
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I have been known to do that. However with the subject matter of the thread and the WPT rumour being relatively recent, it did not really seem to be coincidental. But maybe I am wrong.
Luv2DriveTT
10-06-2005, 04:39 PM
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I have been known to do that. However with the subject matter of the thread and the WPT rumour being relatively recent, it did not really seem to be coincidental. But maybe I am wrong.
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Thats not a rumor, there was a press conference where Doyle made the announcement of his intentions to work with his undisclosed backers. I saw the video, he looked like a deer in caught in headlights (George Bush).
TT /images/graemlins/club.gif
Ed Miller
10-06-2005, 04:40 PM
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I have been known to do that. However with the subject matter of the thread and the WPT rumour being relatively recent, it did not really seem to be coincidental. But maybe I am wrong.
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*shrug*
My comments don't refer to any specific person or situation (except Martha Stewart).
This is a PSA for 2+2'ers who believe everything they hear on TV and in magazines and interviews. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Just because you see someone on TV, and they have the reputation of being an excellent poker player and a standup person doesn't mean that either is true. They might be a bad poker player and a cheater. In fact, in my opinion, the large majority of "TV poker personalities" have been presented with a serious layer of spin. They're not all cheaters by any means, but most of them are not the "poker geniuses" the shows would have you believe they are. Some are hustlers, grifters, cheaters, beggers, and the like. Most of the other ones are just some boob who plays poker ok and is running good.
I read the WPT forum occasionally, and it makes me laugh how so many people parrot what they saw on a poker TV show or read in an interview. They don't question it at all... they buy it hook, line, and sinker. That goes for many things in our society, but I happen to know more about poker players than I do about, say, White House officials, so it's more amusing to me to see the delusion.
Living in ignorance is fine as long as you don't sit at the table with these people. But when you enter their territory... the big games... you'd better have your wits about you.
4_2_it
10-06-2005, 04:46 PM
Ed,
Do you think that we will see an expose by a news organization (Dateline, 60 Minutes, etc.) about a poker player or the poker world in general? I'm not asking you to name names or speculate, just to render an opinion on how easy it would be for a decent investigative reporter to put something juicy together.
(For the record, I am not a reporter nor am I affiliated with any news organization. I am just curious.)
Ed Miller
10-06-2005, 04:56 PM
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Do you think that we will see an expose by a news organization (Dateline, 60 Minutes, etc.) about a poker player or the poker world in general? I'm not asking you to name names or speculate, just to render an opinion on how easy it would be for a decent investigative reporter to put something juicy together.
(For the record, I am not a reporter nor am I affiliated with any news organization. I am just curious.)
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I don't think it would be easy for an investigative reporter to put anything like that together. That's because cheating at poker can be a technical and subtle enterprise, and even if someone "blew the whistle," there's no evidence to present. There are no incriminating memos and no easy way to "catch them in the act." Only way to really "get the story" would be to become an accomplice and get an under cover story.
I have not, and will never, accuse any specific player or group of cheating, nor will I accuse any specific cardroom of harboring cheating. Those accusations are serious business, and I'm not qualified to make them.
But people do cheat at poker sometimes, and you shouldn't assume that just because you are in a large cardroom or major online room that it can't possibly be happening.
flair1239
10-06-2005, 05:15 PM
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Do you think that we will see an expose by a news organization (Dateline, 60 Minutes, etc.) about a poker player or the poker world in general? I'm not asking you to name names or speculate, just to render an opinion on how easy it would be for a decent investigative reporter to put something juicy together.
(For the record, I am not a reporter nor am I affiliated with any news organization. I am just curious.)
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I don't think it would be easy for an investigative reporter to put anything like that together. That's because cheating at poker can be a technical and subtle enterprise, and even if someone "blew the whistle," there's no evidence to present. There are no incriminating memos and no easy way to "catch them in the act." Only way to really "get the story" would be to become an accomplice and get an under cover story.
I have not, and will never, accuse any specific player or group of cheating, nor will I accuse any specific cardroom of harboring cheating. Those accusations are serious business, and I'm not qualified to make them.
But people do cheat at poker sometimes, and you shouldn't assume that just because you are in a large cardroom or major online room that it can't possibly be happening.
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Why then when someone like Russ Georgiev lets the accusations fly, is he written of as a lunatic (which he may very well be, I only know him from some humorous RPG posts and surfing his site a couple times).
As a matter of fact recently Mason ripped into Roy Cooke pretty good on this site, for even suggesting that Georgiev had any credibility.
GrunchCan
10-06-2005, 05:16 PM
So how do we, the honest poker players trying to play square, defend ourselves, learn how to defend ourselves, and know when we're being cheated?
Ed Miller
10-06-2005, 05:42 PM
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So how do we, the honest poker players trying to play square, defend ourselves, learn how to defend ourselves, and know when we're being cheated?
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Learn about the methods of cheating. Darwin Ortiz wrote a terrific book called Gambling Scams. Understand how cheating works. Then get to know (as well as you can) about the people you play against on a regular basis. Watch for funny stuff.. loose players who always happen to avoid each other, etc. Finally, if you play in a regular game with the same players, and you are stuck a whole lot over the long term, consider finding another game. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Ed Miller
10-06-2005, 05:43 PM
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Why then when someone like Russ Georgiev lets the accusations fly, is he written of as a lunatic (which he may very well be, I only know him from some humorous RPG posts and surfing his site a couple times).
As a matter of fact recently Mason ripped into Roy Cooke pretty good on this site, for even suggesting that Georgiev had any credibility.
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I don't know anything about Russ Georgiev, so I can't begin to comment.
GrunchCan
10-06-2005, 05:51 PM
Actually in my regular home game, my regular opponents are the ones who are stuck. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
Luv2DriveTT
10-06-2005, 06:11 PM
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So how do we, the honest poker players trying to play square, defend ourselves, learn how to defend ourselves, and know when we're being cheated?
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Just open your eyes.. and don't make assumptions at any time. Thats all you can do, as Ed said earlier cheating is rare but that doesn't mean it doesn't occur. Luckilly at the limits I assume you play at (and I play at) you are most likely safe.
TT /images/graemlins/club.gif
bernie
10-06-2005, 06:35 PM
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Just because you see someone on TV, and they have the reputation of being an excellent poker player and a standup person doesn't mean that either is true. They might be a bad poker player and a cheater. In fact, in my opinion, the large majority of "TV poker personalities" have been presented with a serious layer of spin. They're not all cheaters by any means, but most of them are not the "poker geniuses" the shows would have you believe they are. Some are hustlers, grifters, cheaters, beggers, and the like. Most of the other ones are just some boob who plays poker ok and is running good.
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Blasphemy! /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Hey, you going to be around Vegas the week after x-mas?
b
Ed Miller
10-06-2005, 06:44 PM
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Hey, you going to be around Vegas the week after x-mas?
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Maybe, but that also might be the week we go on our honeymoon. Not sure yet.
andyfox
10-06-2005, 07:32 PM
"They are going to win anyway, why not just do it fairly, im just saying they are going to win anyway so they dont need any cheating. Also people always find out, I mean no new players would be able to survive at those levels, it would be found out if everyone was cheating."
Poker is a game of skill and luck. While the better players beat the less skilled in the long run, it's not always so in the short run. If a "mark" is in town for only a few days, he might hit a hot streak, or he might go to the crap tables. Cheating increases your chances to get his money and to get it quicker.
As for people always finding out, I doubt poker is too much different than other businesses; certainly some people get away with cheating forever without being found out.
I don't think anybody is saying everybody is cheating. (Well, maybe Russ G. sort of did). But to think there's no cheating in the mega-big games is naive. Wherever there's gambling, there's cheating. Sometimes a good reputation is the product of good PR, expecially in Vegas.
Having said all this, you'll note I took Doyle's name out of the title here because I don't know anything about him and it's wrong of people to make accusations or even insinuations about particular people without evidence.
B Dids
10-06-2005, 07:46 PM
Russ G.'s arguments involve pictures of computers that aren't plugged and and other lunacy. Comparing him to what Ed is saying is just a non-starter.
MicroBob
10-06-2005, 08:22 PM
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I doubt poker is too much different than other businesses; certainly some people get away with cheating forever without being found out.
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Without a doubt.
The idea that it doesn't happen just because someone might be watching them is incorrect.
Not everyone that works in casino-security is that poker-sharp.
Not all cheaters would do it so obviously as to flash 3rd-base-coach type signals across the table to their partner.
There are ways to do it that I can think of off the top of my head that would be pretty difficult to detect...and I'm really not that smart nor would be that good at such things.
(if the following is somehow inappropriate then moderator may feel free to delete it...or I'll delete it myself if I told in time)
Even something like:
"chip on top of cards in the dead-middle means no hand"
"chip on top of cards a little off-center means pocket-pair"
"chip on top of cards more to the side means I have an ace"
could be somewhat powerful between colluders.
Perhaps even "If I bet or raise on a rainbow flop then I have something strong and want you to re-raise" could be enough.
If the colluders weren't too stupidly out-of-hand about it then the cheating could go on for a long time without ever being detected by you, me or expert players I suspect.
FWIW - When I played in my first WSOP event (the $3k NLHE on July 1) I was dealt a card with a finger-nail marking on the back. I didn't think it was unintentional and before I even peeked at my cards i thought "I bet this card is an ace".
Indeed, it was an ace.
There were 3 'name' players at my table (Huck Seed, Eric Brenes and Tom McEvoy) and 6 relative unknowns.
I was also told that they re-used cards from previous days so they were all likely to have markings on them after a few weeks of use.
MMMMMM
10-06-2005, 09:08 PM
Russ G. doesn't seem to be aware of the difference between fact and speculation, and presents both in the same manner--that is, as if it ALL were fact. That's not a useful or credible approach, and is potentially very harmful both to certain individuals and in general.
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Russ G. doesn't seem to be aware of the difference between fact and speculation, and presents both in the same manner--that is, as if it ALL were fact.
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Which is also a problem because he's not just a lunatic. Some of what he says has been confirmed by some of the big names in poker. For example, Sklansky has had some things to say about cheating in the past. Negreanu has been involved in the discussions. And so on.
Jorge10
10-06-2005, 10:39 PM
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Russ G. doesn't seem to be aware of the difference between fact and speculation, and presents both in the same manner--that is, as if it ALL were fact.
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Anyone got a link?
andyfox
10-06-2005, 11:57 PM
In my experience, it's rare that you'll play a session without a marked card showing up somewhere if you're in a 20-40 or higher game in a major casino. I've heard tales of signaling, such as you describe, and I know there are some people in my game who play on the same bankroll, but I've never seen such collusion. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened.
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...and I know there are some people in my game who play on the same bankroll,...
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This is something that players should try and know about of people in their regular game(s), especially higher-limit games. And with the popularity and rise of NL in recent years, this may be more common than it used to be. Some years ago, I played in pot-limit games were I knew that one and sometimes two people at the table were being banked by a big money player. You then watched yourself when in hands involving those specific players. I suspect that at times there was collusion and cheating. I, however, have no proof.
Marked cards are quite common. Watch for them.
It's always best to be cautious, especially if something doesn't 'feel 'right'.
-Zeno
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I read the WPT forum occasionally, and it makes me laugh how so many people parrot what they saw on a poker TV show or read in an interview. They don't question it at all... they buy it hook, line, and sinker. That goes for many things in our society, but I happen to know more about poker players than I do about, say, White House officials, so it's more amusing to me to see the delusion.
Living in ignorance is fine as long as you don't sit at the table with these people. But when you enter their territory... the big games... you'd better have your wits about you.
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That was worth reading again.
So is this:
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Just because you see someone on TV, and they have the reputation of being an excellent poker player and a standup person doesn't mean that either is true. They might be a bad poker player and a cheater. In fact, in my opinion, the large majority of "TV poker personalities" have been presented with a serious layer of spin. They're not all cheaters by any means, but most of them are not the "poker geniuses" the shows would have you believe they are. Some are hustlers, grifters, cheaters, beggers, and the like. Most of the other ones are just some boob who plays poker ok and is running good.
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Excellent post in my opinion. Also, Mr. Miller, I will take this opportunity to say best wishes and good luck to you and the new attachment.
-Zeno
J.A.Sucker
10-07-2005, 12:25 PM
You can't see real marked cards these days. All you can do, especially when playing short, is to quit when things don't feel right. Usually this has to do with the flow of the action not being what you'd think. There's a lot to this, and I'm not going to get into it, but people can reason some of it out.
dibbs
10-07-2005, 02:50 PM
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I think I recall Clark once said there is (implicit) collusion in the Big Game to such a degree that no non-regulars can win.
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Barry plays in the big game now, and if he plays there then its obviously safe as he has no ties whatsoever to vegas, he doesnt live in vegas and only goes there occasionally to play. He is not a regular and if there was any proof to what you guys said, he would get cleaned out, but if you read his book you will see that he does rather well in it. Think about that before screaming collusion.
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What if he's down with em now? They told him how they do it man.
Thanks Mr. Sucker. I was referring to the amateur way some try to "dent" etc. cards.
Your point is well taken.
-Zeno
Props to J.A. Sucker for pointing this out. The few times I am pretty sure I have been cheated, the flow of action was very strange. If you understand the game you are playing, you should understand what this means (as it varies from game to game). I will say that you are in more danger playing games like stud or omaha than hold em.
J.A.Sucker
10-07-2005, 09:45 PM
In stud, always put your upcards over the downcards. Before the third card comes out, cup your hand and look at your hole cards, then put the upcard over it - completely. That's what I do, and it feels like a good idea.
On the internet, if you are colluding (even with yourself), omaha and stud, especially high-low games, would be where I'd cheat. More cards, more information, and more dominating cards to know about. Props to dudes playing high limit PLO on the internet - you are much braver and trusting than I.
Any time the game doesn't feel right, you're the live one. Either you are tilting, outclassed, or are being cheated. It doesn't really matter at that instant - you're going to go broke, so just quit. You should take note of the players in the game, though. If things always get fishy with certain folks, then you need to figure out what is going on or find a new game. Just some common sense, but I don't think many people have as much of it as they think.
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Any time the game doesn't feel right, you're the live one. Either you are tilting, outclassed, or are being cheated. It doesn't really matter at that instant - you're going to go broke, so just quit. You should take note of the players in the game, though. If things always get fishy with certain folks, then you need to figure out what is going on or find a new game. Just some common sense, but I don't think many people have as much of it as they think.
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Just for the record. I have heard from multiple reliable sources that the stars 75 games is almost openly colluded. Flow of action was my first clue.
I use your stud tip as well.
I was talking to Gavin Smith in Aruba and we agreed on a 2v2, 5k freezeout collusion match. Me and Nomar versus him and some other guy. Should be fun.
ClaytonN
10-07-2005, 10:23 PM
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Just for the record. I have heard from multiple reliable sources that the stars 75 games is almost openly colluded. Flow of action was my first clue.
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Someone must have forgotten to tell Greg, because he's in the game right now.
Greg who? If it's Greg Mueller. Tell that Canadian I'm coming from him. That game is certainly still beatable as there are far more non colluders than colluders. But when a group of 4-6 players brag about how they are beating the game sharing hole cards, you better pick your spots.
ClaytonN
10-07-2005, 11:08 PM
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Greg who?
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Sorry, Raymer.
TimTimSalabim
10-08-2005, 12:54 AM
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Any time the game doesn't feel right, you're the live one. Either you are tilting, outclassed, or are being cheated. It doesn't really matter at that instant - you're going to go broke, so just quit. You should take note of the players in the game, though. If things always get fishy with certain folks, then you need to figure out what is going on or find a new game. Just some common sense, but I don't think many people have as much of it as they think.
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This is the best advice I've ever read on 2+2. Belongs in a FAQ somewhere.
dogsballs
10-13-2005, 12:23 AM
I met Doyle recently cos I won a wsop seat thru his site. Super nice guy and he had time to be nice and chat to even a numpty like me when everyone else wanted a piece of his time. So I give him credit. That's all I know. Screw gossip.
benkahuna
10-13-2005, 02:23 AM
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I met Doyle recently cos I won a wsop seat thru his site. Super nice guy and he had time to be nice and chat to even a numpty like me when everyone else wanted a piece of his time. So I give him credit. That's all I know. Screw gossip.
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Of course he was nice to you when you qualified via his site.
dogsballs
10-14-2005, 04:39 PM
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I met Doyle recently cos I won a wsop seat thru his site. Super nice guy and he had time to be nice and chat to even a numpty like me when everyone else wanted a piece of his time. So I give him credit. That's all I know. Screw gossip.
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Of course he was nice to you when you qualified via his site.
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He was nice to everyone that wanted to stop him for a word or autograph.
Luv2DriveTT
10-14-2005, 05:26 PM
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I met Doyle recently cos I won a wsop seat thru his site. Super nice guy and he had time to be nice and chat to even a numpty like me when everyone else wanted a piece of his time. So I give him credit. That's all I know. Screw gossip.
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Question - would you think he is such a great guy if you owned WPTE stock?
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