How's this for poor play (truly unbelievable)

[ECondreras]

I was playing very low limit on PartyPoker last night (I am new, but well versed) and I had some really weak players at my table. Check this out.

I am dealt JJ in MP. The first player out after the BB raises. Four players call, including myself. I was going to reraise, but in this extremely loose game where people play anything, pocket pairs were not holding up well (I had played some really fast and still lost with them).

The flop comes: [ 3d, Jd, 6d ]

Figures. Flop my set, but the flush scares the hell out of me. SB bets, pre-flop raiser raises, next guy folds, I call, button calls, SB reraises, everyone still left calls.

Now I figure there are several players who either flopped the flush or are working a 4 flush and they must have some high cards. If the limit wasn't so low, I would have been out on that round, but I have a hard time folding trips and really wanted to see one more card. Like I said, I think that was really a fundamental mistake, but what the heck.

So now the turn comes: [ 6c ]

Now I am excited. The only thing beating my boat at that point would be someone holding 66 and I doubt that someone was. So here goes the betting:

SB bets, next guy calls, I raise, button calls, SB reraises, next guy calls, I reraise again, button calls, SB calls.

Again, the only thing that would beat me at that point would be a guy with pocket 6's, but I just don't think anyone has them. My biggest fear was a big card on the river, because if it made a set for someone else, I'm done.

So here is the river: [ 7c ]

Perfect. Now I have almost the pure nuts and in my heart feel I have the best hand.

SB bets, next guy calls, I raise, button calls, SB reraises, call, I reraise, button calls, SB calls, last better calls.

Here is what they showed down with. This will have you scratching your head.

Button had: [ 9d 8d ]for the flush. How this guy could have stuck around is beyond me. With that betting going on, he should have thought for sure that someone had the Ace high flush. Just a compete calling station blunder on his part.

SB had: [ 6s 3s ] for the small boat. Here's my problem with his play. First, I never play something like 63s, because all it does it lead to trouble (here is case in point). If you get a flush with it, are you confident that your winning with 6 high? Please. The guy should have never of seen the flop. But he did and he floped middle and bottom pair. Even worse for this poor smuck. Then the other six falls, and he probably thought, "jackpot!". But at that point, he should have noticed that I got involved and put me on the jacks. Too bad for him. If you play cards like 63s, bad things happen. Plus this guy was running his mouth and it made it even sweeter.

The last guy showed: [ Qc Qs ]. I understood his play up until the river. He said to me that "a queen would have drowned you in the river". And if a big card fell, I would have had quite a choice. I could see him chasing the queen to the river, but once it didn't come, WHAT THE HELL WAS HE THINKING?! Did he really think that we were all bluffing? C'mon. And did he think that his queens up were good. Just mindblowing. Maybe he thought everyone else was going to fold to me and he just had to see what I had. Who the hell knows. Whatever the reasons he had for calling out on the end, they were bad.

So, there you have it. My boat sailed off with a nice pot thanks to these guys. I am the first to admit that betting through the flop was a bit of a gamble (I'm sure you guys could figure the odds for those calls), and that I didn't have the pure nuts, but it was damn close. You could even say that I should have just called on the turn because jumping in when the sixes hit gave my hand away. I would agree with you all. But if I played my hand badly, these guys played theirs worse.

I appreciate your comments and please feel free to post them. I welcome your thoughts, both positive and negative.

[smd]

Nice pot. Welcome to low-limit poker. You're going to see much stranger than this. Except for the guy with QQ, their play does seem semi-reasonable. SB flops two pair and fills on the turn. Button flops a flush (i see he never raised?). The guy with QQ kind of got stuck in the middle. When he got to the river, I would bet his thinking was: <SB bets> 'pots too big- might as well call one more bet' <You raise- SB reraises> 'damn- well betting is capped- might as well see it through'.

[hutz]

If the limit wasn't so low, I would have been out on that round, but I have a hard time folding trips and really wanted to see one more card.

It doesn't matter if you are playing for match sticks, pennies, or $1000 big bets, proper play is still proper play. The unquestionably proper play when you flop top set, even if the flop is single-suited, is to see the river 99.9% of the time. You have a monster re-draw against a made flush and you need to punish the stiff ace or king of the suit that is drawing to hit the flush. Your read on your opponents through their actions (in live play) and betting patterns will help tell you whether you are up against a made flush or a draw. You should then act appropriately by betting/raising against draws or calling/betting/raising (as appropriate based on the number of opponents and whether you think they will lay down a small flush in the face of aggression) against a made flush. Likewise, even if a big card hits on the river, the times where you should lay down a full house for one last bet are more rare than finding a superstar player on the 2003 Detroit Tigers roster. Good luck and keep posting! /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[ECondreras]

I love that first line - really made me laugh!

I still have so much to learn when it comes to pot odds and EV. I read and re-read the books, but when I am in the middle of the battle, especially online where they give you what seems like 10 seconds to act, I tend to act on impulse (not good). But I keep studying and trying and posts like yours (and the others on this forum) really help. I appreciate it.

Few questions if I may (anyone can answer if they like).

In this type of loose game, was I right in not reraising before the flop?

Based on the above reply, I assume I bet the flop properly. How about the turn? Too agressive when the pair hit?

Again, I assume I did the right thing on the river. And if somebody showed me 2 sixes, oh well. Or of a king hit and I lost to a bigger boat, so be it. Correct?

Thanks. Oh, and just for conversation's sake, since I have been playing online (since Friday), I have drew to 4 10's (two in the hole) and 4 aces (one in the hole and 3 up). Both times a player went to the bitter end, reraising me all the way. How common is that?

[Huh]

Pre-flop, I think it depends on where you acted out of the four.

On the flop, I think even considering letting this go is a huge mistake. You have 7 outs on the flop to fill up and 10 outs on the turn. Not to mention, with this many people in the pot, trump ace has every right to ram n' jam.

On a side note, if you were playing micro limits, I would expect the action you described. When I was playing PL and NL online and folding some pretty big hands, I would often spend an hour in a micro limit game afterward and see how fast I could burn through $5 bucks. I was suprised at how many times I doubled my buy-in within an hour /forums/images/icons/grin.gif .

-Huh /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[hutz]

There are many others on here who can contribute more than I, but I'm glad I could at least make you laugh!

Unfortunately, I don't have much time during working hours to do more than crank out a few quick thoughts during a post. In response to your questions:

I'd have 3-bet pre-flop. Unless you are certain the original raisor is one who'd only raise AA, KK, or QQ, you very likely have the best hand. You also want to chase out stiff aces, kings, and queens or make them pay to see the flop.

On the flop, I'd have been sorely tempted to 3-bet. If you have the best hand, you will get more money into the pot and if you don't, you still have plenty of re-draws on the turn and river and might push out a low flush (not too likely, though). If the fourth diamond hits on the turn and nobody has the ace, you very well may get to take a free card or you might get to check behind an attempted check-raise.

When the board pairs on the turn, you have to love it. Fearing 66 is seeing monsters under the bed. You will make more money jamming the second nuts in this situation than you will lose in the ultra-rare occasions when someone has quads. I'd only lay down here if someone was nice and flipped 66 over onto the table.

On the river, even if an overcard hit I'd still assume my hand was good and would bet/raise it. It would take a 3-bet behind me to slow me down. I'm glad the hand worked out well for you.

[CrackerZack]

I agree. Not raising the flop was pretty terrible with top set. Considering folding on the flop was even nearly as bad.

[JTG51]

So, I guess the unbelievably bad play was yours?

I am new, but well versed

Your thought process here shows that you aren't nearly as well versed as you think.

Thinking about folding top set on any flop is absolutely atrocious. I only say atrocious because I can't think of a stronger word. Is hideous stronger than atrocious?

[CrackerZack]

Not re-raising pre-flop is probably right everyone is gonna call you anyway. You don't want a 4-handed contest with JJ although at these limits with how crazy people are, you still may want it. raise the flop, bet/raise/cap the turn, same with the river. If a big card comes on the river and you get 3-bet consider calling but at these low limits, I'd cap it especially with 2 other people coming along for the ride.

[ECondreras]

Thanks for the kind words - but I guess that's what makes people different. Some look to encourage and help, some look to humiliate. We all had to have started somewhere, but I guess you shot out of your mother with pocket aces jammed up your a$$.

I admitted that I didn't play the hand well, and even asked for a critique. If this is your idea of help for someone new, then "thanks but no thanks".

[ECondreras]

Now that is how to give advice without making someone feel like a complete idiot. Thank you.

In retrospect, giving thought to mucking a set seems crazy. But I can't tell you how many flushes and straights, and the lack of boats, I have seen in the 25 or so hours I played since Friday. I was "seeing ghosts" as another poster put it! I will never consider folding a top set ever again.

As for the pre-flop betting, again, in those 25+ hours of play, I can't tell you how many times I lost with either AA or KK. I'd raise and reraise pre-flop, only to end up losing the hand to guys that played J5o, or T4o. I guess I shouldn't be gunshy. But pocket pairs do not hold up as well in these wild games. I'd much rather have A9s in these games.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.

[WiredPair]

I understand what you mean, Ed with respect to "seeing ghosts" when it always seems like you're drawn out on in these loose games. However, in my novice opinion (and I mean that seriously), you still want pocket pairs like JJ and up in these games over something like A9s.

Remember that if the flop comes and your pair is the overpair to the board, play it hard and make the draws pay! If you're not an overpair and there are flush/straight draws out there, limit your losses and get out quick (if there is substantial action)! Don't make the mistake of chasing flush draws yourself (when the odds don't warrant it). This is where your opponents often times are making a mistake, drawing to flushes in the face of a bet and a raise or two in front of them on the flop. Don't make the same mistake.

I'm certainly in learning mode right now, reading a lot of books, reading (and posting) here and playing when I can. Welcome to the forum.

[tewall]

Nice post.

"I am dealt JJ in MP. The first player out after the BB raises. Four players call, including myself. I was going to reraise, but in this extremely loose game where people play anything, pocket pairs were not holding up well (I had played some really fast and still lost with them)."

The last part of the above reveals some fuzzy thinking. It's too results oriented. You're saying you didn't raise because they hadn't been holding up well. If you're convinced you have the best hand, you should raise to make those who are behind you pay to draw to beat you.

"Now I figure there are several players who either flopped the flush or are working a 4 flush and they must have some high cards. If the limit wasn't so low, I would have been out on that round, but I have a hard time folding trips and really wanted to see one more card. Like I said, I think that was really a fundamental mistake, but what the heck."

It would have been a big mistake to fold on the flop. First of all, you don't know someone has a flush. Second and more importanly, you easily have odds to try to hit a boat. It's almost never a mistake to go to the river with a set. In the cases where it is a mistake, it will be a small one. On the other hand, it could be a big mistake to fold your set.

An old poker saying is if you don't win or lose a lot of chips when you get a set, you didn't play it right. If you're absolutely convinced your set is no good at the river, you can let it go, but at least get to the river. And until you have more experience, especially playing players whose play is so erratic it's impossible to know what they have, make them show you a hand that can beat your set.

You did the right thing by discounting the 66 quads. If someone shows you quads to beat you, them's the breaks.

Well played.

[ECondreras]

I've done well with my own flush/straight draws, trying to make sure that the pot odds warrant the draw (in these super loose games, they almost always do). I folded both flush and straight draws that would have been made, but the pot odds didn't warrant the calls. I scratched my head and said "damn!", but I perfectly understand why it doesn't pay to draw in those situations (the odds of drawing vs. the odds the pot is laying). But when you are starting out, it can be difficult. I equate it to trying to teach someone to play blackjack for the first time. Some people get it right away, but others have a hard time with the concept. and it makes it even harder when you tell them to stay on 14 when the dealer is showing 5, and they see the next card drawn is a 6. "I would have had 20!" Yes you would, but consistantly hitting 14, when the dealer shows a 5 is an awful play.

Anyway, glad to see some nice people here. Thanks for the advice.

[ECondreras]

Thanks for the reply - great points.

How about this. Let's say that there are 4 people to the river and the board has a four flush showing. All you have is the set. The betting starts and you get caught in the middle of reraises. Would it be safe to say that your set is beat and you muck them, or do you keep on calling until the betting is capped? I don't want to end up in that situation and be beat by multiple players. But if that is the play, then that is the play.

[CrackerZack]

"Now that is how to give advice without making someone feel like a complete idiot. Thank you."

Not to be defensive, or degrade this to an RGP post, but seriously, your post is titled "How's this for poor play (truly unbelievable)" and in it you go on to berate all the other players in the hand for going to a showdown. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Since you described it as very low limit, a lot of players are very new and having fun and rarely think about what other players have. "I have a flush, I can't fold" is probably what the 9-8 guy was thinking, 6-3 guy probably was thinking the same about his boat, or saying I can't believe that guy is raising me with the A-high flush, won't he be shocked, and the QQ guy is probably in disbelief that his great starting hand is really gonna lose and is gonna pay the extra 5 bucks or so to see something better.

As for strategy goes, I posted a reply to others messages but I'll say it again, raise the flop, you want to charge a naked A or K to draw to the flop and even if you're behind you have 7 outs on the flop, 10 more on the turn and more times than not you'll be ahead at this point.

While the point of the original reply was not to make you feel like an idiot, we all do make mistakes and the less we make the more money we make from these people making "compete calling station blunder" mistakes. But comments like "Whatever the reasons he had for calling out on the end, they were bad." and "WHAT THE HELL WAS HE THINKING?! Did he really think that we were all bluffing? C'mon." "But if I played my hand badly, these guys played theirs worse." serve no positive purpose other than insulting the other players. At least mine, and JTGs responses, while in a bit of an obnoxious tone, pointed out some mistakes that could be remedied.

and lastly, "I appreciate your comments and please feel free to post them. I welcome your thoughts, both positive and negative." really? I don't feel the appreciation, nor do I think I deserve it.

-Zack

[Homer]

Don't even think about folding on the flop. You are actually making money on every bet that goes into the pot, even if one of your opponents flips over a flush. You are 2:1 against filling up by the river and are getting 3:1 on every bet you put into the pot with three opponents.

If you didn't fill on the turn, you still are going to see the river. You will be 3.6:1 against filling, and will be getting sufficient odds even if the betting is capped with 2-3 opponents.

-- Homer

[Joe Tall]

4 people, 4 flush board and you don't hold any of that suit, don't call even one bet, you have an easy lay down here. (this reminds me, I'll post a hand I played well this weekend, or at least I thought I did...we'll see)

Oh, and don't worry about JTG, he was a little tough with me at first, he's just pissed the Yanks have to face Pedro tonight.

Keep posting your maginal hands, not matter how badly you played, this is the greatest thing I came to do here. I still post my strange over-aggressive plays and take my constructive beatings (and some times not-so-consturctive beatings). Do you know why? Because the players here will tell you that you actually played worst than you thought you did. (What? you might say? (keep reading))

Remember this, THEY'LL TELL YOU HOW and even WHY you did it.

All on the road to inprovement, welcome to the forum.

[Homer]

JTG's response was a bit harsh, but correct.

You are losing a lot of money by folding top set on the flop even if one of your opponents shows you a made flush.

On the flop, you are risking 4 small bets to win 22 small bets (10 preflop plus 12 on the flop), plus all bets on the turn and river (implied odds). You'll probably make 8-10 BB's on the turn river when you hit against this crowd, so in all you will win 19-21 BB's (let's call it 20) with a risk of 2 BB's. You'll win 20 BB's 1/3 of the time and lose 2 BB's 2/3 of the time. This means on average you will win 5.33 BB's by staying in the hand on the flop (compared to 0 when you fold).

Hence, by folding, you are costing yourself 5.33 BB's, which is a catastrophic error.

-- Homer

[Homer]

What? He should lay down on the flop for a single bet?

No way, that would be horrible EVEN IF HE KNEW 100% THAT SOMEONE HAD A FLUSH ALREADY.

He's costing himself approximately 5 BB's by folding.

-- Homer

[ECondreras]

Fair enough. Thanks for taking the time to write that. I guess my point is that I wasn't naming names or singling out a specific person in my post. But you have an excellent point and I should have chosen my words more carefully.

The one thing that I didn't stress was that there was a lot of trash talking going on that I didn't participate in. At the beginning of the session, the guy that ended up with the small boat won a hand playing 53o (straight). Someone said nice hand and I agreed, adding "keep playing those" (which was sarcastic, but I was upset that I started with decent cards and ended up second best). That's when this guy goes off with, "you think you now this game? I make my living with those cards. You play them high, and I will kill you with them low ones. Keep reading those books. Let me ask you. How many cards are dealt out in hold'em?" Blah, blah, blah. The guy wouldn't shut up. I told him that I obviosly didn't know the game and left it at that. So when this hand materialized (at like 12:30 am) it really got me pumped. I played for another 1/2 hour and went to bed. I guess when I woke up, I still had that "so take that!" feeling and wrote my post.

This is not a good excuse for phrasing some things the way I did and I apologize. And I did appreciate your comments and only had a problem with JTG's. He didn't really offer anything but insults. I have no problem with criticism, but if someone went to a professional golfer and asked to have their swing critiqued, I think they would be upset with "it sucks - next".

[Joe Tall]

EVEN IF HE KNEW 100% THAT SOMEONE HAD A FLUSH ALREADY.

Homer, this is completely illogical.

[ECondreras]

I know his statement is correct, I just thought it was a bit harsh for a "newbie". But then again I guess I asked for it.

When I read The Theory of Poker (great book that made me a champ of my home game - and no, no one from here is invited!), the sections on pot odds and implied odds were overwhelming. I re-read them all the time, but I am not even close to being able to do that kind of math in my head that quickly. Also, I had been playing a lot of flush draws and was more experienced (for whatever that's worth) playing those than sets and boats.

It's funny, but when I started to write the post I wasn't going to mention the thought I had of folding after the flop (which I didn't - considered yes, but I didn't). But then I thought I would get blasted by people saying that the odds were that someone was going to get the flush, and so on. So in an effort to cover my behind, I opened the door to getting blasted. So even though I took a few hard words I'm glad I mentioned the thought of folding, because now I know how to better play sets. So thanks!

[ECondreras]

Oh, and don't worry about JTG, he was a little tough with me at first, he's just pissed the Yanks have to face Pedro tonight.

JTG is a Yankee fan? All is forgiven! And we don't fear Pedro - he's one fastball away from blowing his arm out forever /forums/images/icons/ooo.gif

[Homer]

Homer:

EVEN IF HE KNEW 100% THAT SOMEONE HAD A FLUSH ALREADY.

Mr. Larry Joe Fish Tall:

Homer, this is completely illogical.

Homer - Part 2:

Nope, I'm right. Seriously. I'll leave it to others to elaborate. Just kidding, I always wanted to try that line...as I suspected, it makes me sound like a dickhead.

Just because you are behind at the moment doesn't mean that you aren't getting odds to chase. You will improve to a full-house 1/3 times by the river. You're getting plenty of odds to draw at it, even if someone shows you a flush on the flop. In fact, you are making money on every bet that goes into the pot, same as when you pump a nut-flush draw. Three opponents are putting money in, so you are getting 3:1 on a 2:1 shot.

Would you fold a bare A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif here?

Would you fold a four-flush on the flop if someone showed you top-pair?

Think of the set as a drawing hand in this situation. It's just like a nut-flush draw with 2:1 odds against improving by the river.

-- Homer

[Nottom]

I would have 3-bet the flop and then had it capped by the SB. To be fair to the other bad players in the hand, based on your pre-flop and flop play it would have been hard to put you on Jacks.

As an outsider watching this hand, I would be more likely to put you on 66 than JJ.

[ECondreras]

Help me out here. Going back over this, once the flop came there were 7 cards that would improve my hand, right? One jack, three 3's and three 6's. There are five cards seen by me, leaving 47 others. So 7 cards make my hand and 40 do not. Wouldn't I be a 40:7 underdog or a 5.71:1 underdog to make a boat or better on the turn?

I get so confused!

[Nottom]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Thinking about folding top set on any flop is absolutely atrocious. I only say atrocious because I can't think of a stronger word. Is hideous stronger than atrocious?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok hapless straight foward fishy-type raises and you re-raise with QQ. He calls.

Flop comes: T /forums/images/icons/spade.gif J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif Q /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

His eyes grow about 5 times in size and you notice him straining to see how much the jackpot is up to. How you feel about top set here? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Vehn]

I would just call preflop especially with a 5-bet cap.

This thread is like watching a midget dick measuring contest.

[Don Quixote]

Me thinks thou doth protest too much and do not take criticism well. That having been said, I saw an unbelievable play in that same game last night. It was between you and me. I would not have posted it except you have made such a big issue out of the poor players at that table. After all, it was only a .50/1. limit. I came into the game just as that big mouthed player in the #10 seat was blowing off and berating other players. I heard your response and feel that your response was not out of line.

Do you recall one player that said he was disabling his chat? That was me.

A few hands later I had pocket aces. You were in middle position and called with Q3 suited. The flop came two more of your suit plus pairing your Q. The flop A made me top set. I kept leading all the way with my set, but you picked up the flush on the river. Your play from the flop on was just fine, but Q3s is not a good starting hand at all. It was not unbelieveable to me because I see it all the time at this limit. You just have to shake it off and move on, knowing and hoping that your opponents dont wise up and start playing correctly.

As I said earlier, I had no intention of posting this hand; but I just couldnt restrain myself. Actually, I have done you a favor because you need to start thinking about starting hands to two flush pocket cards. Drat, now it will probably cost me money next time we play at the same table :-) Lighten up and enjoy the ride. Roller coasters can be fun.

Don Quixote

[ECondreras]

This thread is like watching a midget dick measuring contest

That's hilarious! I've never seen one of those, but I don't think I care to! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[cferejohn]

Well nottom, if there is a jackpot, you are probably getting odds now to chase your last queen anyway.

[Ulysses]

Assuming you're talking about the flop here (which seems reasonable, since Homer was talking about the flop in the post you're responding to), you should read the prior post by Homer for an explanation of why he's correct and you're not.

[Ulysses]

In my regular cardroom, the jackpot is now $100,000, so I'd feel great about it! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[ECondreras]

Were those guys annoying or what? I was going to try and chat with you, but I remembered that you shut off the chat (you were the Old*********, right?)

Every now and then I play QXs. Obviously, I am playing those for the sole purpose of the flush. So in the case last night, if I paired the queen, but got only one or no other to the suit - I am quick to throw it away.

This is probably really bad play as well, but that is my thinking. You will never see me playing Q3o, or K5o like some of these other guys.

[WiredPair]

Yes, you are correct, but so is Homer. His point is that once you see the flop, you are about 2:1 to fill up by the river. Therefore, any bet that goes in is "profit" to you as you are getting 3:1 on any bets made.

You are 40:7 (5.7:1) to fill on the turn, but 36:10 to fill on the river (3.6:1). Once you see the turn, assuming it doesn't help you (which it will 7 times out of 47), you have picked up three more outs for a total of ten on the river.

The above scenario is almost exactly the same as a nut flush draw as Homer points out. On a nut flush draw you have 9 outs on the turn and the river.

Hope that helps!

[ECondreras]

You are 40:7 (5.7:1) to fill on the turn, but 36:10 to fill on the river (3.6:1). Once you see the turn, assuming it doesn't help you (which it will 7 times out of 47), you have picked up three more outs for a total of ten on the river.

Ok, so where I get confused is how 5.7:1 and 3.6:1 end up being 2:1. How do arrive at that that calculation.

Sorry if I am being a moron, but I am having trouble seeing how 1 out of every three times that I flop a set I will end up with a boat or quads by the river.

[Joe Tall]

First, I think we have a misunderstanding.

I replied to:
How about this. Let's say that there are 4 people to the river and the board has a four flush showing. All you have is the set. by Ed

Thus my '4 flush board, 4 people in' start to my post. /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

Um, Pedro is not pitching he hurt his back, thanks Ed. /forums/images/icons/mad.gif So then, Ed, JTG is right and I should have never chimmed in this midget dick measuring contest. (thx vehn /forums/images/icons/wink.gif )

Peace,
Larry Joe Fish Chief Slim Too Tall

[CrackerZack]

Understood and agreed. I get annoyed when people complain at each other in rooms also generally and don't participate. I sometimes block it, sometimes don't depending on my current mood. You were right as you weren't singling anyone out and we actually were, but I think we both agree that instead of thinking I can't believe these guys, they will call with anything, looking at it more as player X will defend his small blind with suited crap even in face of a raise, player Y can't get away from a decent hand (in this case, a flush) and player Z won't let go of his big pocket pairs regardless of how aggressively he's told he's beaten. Obviously as players adjust, so will your reads need to, but if this is thought of as useful information instead of terrible play (and frequently in low limits, it is a fine line) it will probably help your overall outlook and certainly your overall game.

No hard feelings either way.

Zack

[WiredPair]

Here's how you actually figure it:

Your chances of not filling up on the turn are 40/47. Your chances of not filling up on the river are 36/46. Therefore, the chances of you not filling on both the turn and the river are 40/47 x 36/46, or 1,440/2,162.

Expressed as a %, your chance of not filling is 67% (approximately). So, your chance of filling is 33%. Expressed in odds, that is 2 to 1, meaning for every 3 hands, you will fill one time in three.

The silver lining here is that you don't really need to perform these calculations (although it can be good practice to keep you on your toes!) There are many good books that give you the odds that are really important to know.

Hope that helps!

[JTG51]

Well, I'm sorry you felt humiliated. That certainly wasn't my aim. I was just trying to get the point across as loud and clear as possible, in an effort to help you. Maybe I should have worded it differently, but I didn’t think what I wrote would be insulting.

I really don't understand why people don't like harsh sounding, but correct responses to their posts. I just don't get it. When I ask for free advice, I'm happy to get whatever I get as long as it's correct. If you are only interested in kind sounding pats on the back you will lose out on an enormous amount of valuable information on this forum.

As for coming out of the womb with pocket aces up my ass, nothing can be further from the truth. I was as clueless as anyone when I started coming here. I’ve always learned more from the direct, sometimes harsh, responses than I did from the wishy washy stuff. I thought you’d appreciate the same.

All that said, I apologize if I made you feel humiliated. That wasn’t my intention.

[JTG51]

LOL, thanks ECondreras!

Too bad 7 runs isn't enough with the current state of the Yankee bullpen.

[Homer]

This thread is like watching a midget dick measuring contest.

I may actually stand a chance in that competition.

-- Homer

[JTG51]

Well, I already posted an apology but I can't resist replying to this one.

I have no problem with criticism, but if someone went to a professional golfer and asked to have their swing critiqued, I think they would be upset with "it sucks - next".

If that person was paying for lessons, I agree he would probably be upset at what he got. However, if he asked the professional golfer for some free advice and the golfer replied with, "It sucks, you are moving your head too much" I would hope that the guy would in fact appreciate the advice. It's free after all. Would he be happier with, "Sure, I'm glad to help you. Your swing looks great. You should really be moving your head more on your back swing though. And you should think about closing your eyes on the down swing also." I know that's a silly example, but my point is I'd rather get one line of good, if harshly worded, advice than an hour of kind sounding bad advice.

I'll say one last thing on this topic. I always tend to react more strongly when someone comes here saying how terribly their opponents played while at the same time playing poorly themselves. My response probably would have been much different if the original post just said, "How could I have played this hand better".

Finally, as BigLick said, I have no hard feelings over this. I hope you don't either.

[ECondreras]

JTG,

The issue is dead. No hard feelings. Sorry I got my panties in a bunch. There is nothing like tough love /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

What happened to the Yanks?! Well, it's what we do to them every year. Give them a bit of hope and then smash it to bits. I guess it's more fun for them that way!