1st hand, $55 sng

[DarrenX]

Sorry guys, converter site is firewalled at work...

***** Hand History for Game 2808714259 *****
15/30 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 16243822) - Sat Oct 01 19:55:14 EDT 2005
Table Table 18968 (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: thatspoker__ (1000)
Seat 2: toneland (1000)
Seat 3: EmekaOtwuku (1000)
Seat 4: mpokerw (1000)
Seat 5: gubynnej (1000)
Seat 6: mikejc23tx (1000)
Seat 7: ETiryak (1000)
Seat 8: H20sBOY (1000)
Seat 9: DarrenX (1000)
Seat 10: a6308 (1000)
a6308 posts small blind (10)
thatspoker__ posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to DarrenX [ 4s, 4c ]
toneland raises (45) to 45
EmekaOtwuku folds.
mpokerw folds.
gubynnej calls (45)
mikejc23tx folds.
ETiryak folds.
H20sBOY folds.
DarrenX calls (45)
a6308 folds.
thatspoker__ calls (30)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 6s, Qd, 8h ]
thatspoker__ checks.
toneland checks.
gubynnej checks.
DarrenX checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ 4h ]
thatspoker__ checks.
toneland checks.
gubynnej checks.
DarrenX bets (125)
thatspoker__ calls (125)
toneland raises (300) to 300
gubynnej folds.
DarrenX...?? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

You aren't considering folding here right?

Raise or call. I'm leaning towards pushing here. If he has a higher set, he's got you. I doub that a player at the $55's would slowplay a set like this, I'd put him on AA or KK, but even that seems weird that he would slowplay it after the flop. He may have FPS, and was going to C/R the flop?

[bluefeet]

[I'll call a min PF w/44 L1, this one's pushing it. With a caller in between, you're getting a decent price - but considering how often we flop a set, I'm probably folding this PF]

Wow. Is he holding exactly 57 here? C/r'ing from the blinds this heavy handed, it is certainly more than a "piece" or a draw. The problem is, you'll see 2-pair here just as often. BUT...if that were the case, he'd have to be holding the last 4 in the deck (assuming he didn't flop 2-pair on the flop, looking to c/r on that street - which is always possibe, but I'd expect him to lead the turn).

Push or fold. Well, he certainly isn't folding to a push. If he has the straight, we're facing a 9-outer. I don't know what to tell you. It sucks we have t175 invested, but considering the unlikelihood of him holding the case 4, I don't think folding is too weak.


Edit: Calling sucks, as YOUR cold-caller will feel priced into calling as well. If we are ahead of the c/r'r, giving the river "cheap" to the other - probably draw'r, is unwise IMO. As for raising? You may as well push. The blind guy is getting them all in here on the turn. Again, I don't hate-hate the push...it's just hard for me to put him on THIS 2-pair. And representing now after failing to do so on the flop doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, as with this not-likely-to-have-helped-anyone turn card...I'd expect him to open the turn. I think he has the straight, I really do.

[downtown]

I like a push. I am thinking even with a big pair, that flop looked pretty safe to the original raiser and he may have been trying to trap, or possibly c/r. AQ, AhKh, AKo, AA, KK, are all possibilities here in my mind. QQ is also possible, but we can't fear monsters under the bed, and there's not a lot of room for nuance left. I push.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]

[I'll call a min PF w/44 L1, this one's pushing it. With a caller in between, you're getting a decent price - but considering how often we flop a set, I'm probably folding this PF]

Wow. Is he holding exactly 57 here? C/r'ing from the blinds this heavy handed, it is certainly more than a "piece" or a draw. The problem is, you'll see 2-pair here just as often. BUT...if that were the case, he'd have to be holding the last 4 in the deck (assuming he didn't flop 2-pair on the flop, looking to c/r on that street - which is always possibe, but I'd expect him to lead the turn).

Push or fold. Well, he certainly isn't folding to a push. If he has the straight, we're facing a 9-outer. I don't know what to tell you. It sucks we have t175 invested, but considering the unlikelihood of him holding the case 4, I don't think folding is too weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the initial UTG 3xBB raiser. I don't think he ever has 57. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Folding is terrible.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
I like a push. I am thinking even with a big pair, that flop looked pretty safe to the original raiser and he may have been trying to trap, or possibly c/r. AQ, AhKh, AKo, AA, KK, are all possibilities here in my mind. QQ is also possible, but we can't fear monsters under the bes, and there's not a lot of room for nuance left. I push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn /images/graemlins/frown.gif Sorry...I thought this turn raise came from the blinds, my bad. Yeah, I push this all day!!


Edit: S'what I get for trying to post from work while looking over my shoulder. I think you nailed it...a large pair, looking for someone behind to bite on the flop. Did I mention PUSH?! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

(I vote for fold preflop, to early to get involved with 44 and a lot of overcards on the flop.)

Now, after raise on turn, PUSH must be right in the long run.

[hyde]

I'm pretty sure you own him.
I put him on A,Q..though why he didn't bet the flop is curious....slow playing 8,8?
I put him putting you on K,Q

[wiggs73]

I'm not sure this is a push or fold decision as others are saying. I definitely don't think a fold would be right, so your choices are calling or pushing. I think both have their advantages. A push shows extreme strength and I'm not sure how many people would be paying you off with 2 pair here if you push. If you think 2 pair usually would call a push, then it's the right decision. My concern, though, is that you might only get more chips in the pot from hands that have you beaten.

A call, on the other hand, shows less strength, so he might bet at the river with a weaker hand. If he checks the river, you can always value bet (or value push) then and try to get your chips in that way.

I must admit I have sympathy for this line.

One of my leaks (I think) is that I really hate giving him a free card now. If he gets lucky on the river, he should at least have to pay for it up front.

[DarrenX]

Thanks for the responses...

I'll call 3x raise w/a couple callers 1st level w/44 on the button all day- may be a leak?

Nobody puts this guy on a higher set, eh? Also, there was a cold-caller from the sb yet to act again- doesn't scare anyone, eh?

Well, it scared me- I was convinced I'd see 88 or QQ and made a Hellmuthian fold; original raiser called. River was another 8, and my heart sunk when they went check/check. Cold-caller had a flush draw, and the raiser had TT. Me weak-tight.

My next question is, how do you like how TT played it?

[Karak567]

Easy push.

How come no one flames blue feet for mentioning how much is invested in the pot? Last time i mentioned it to help someone lay down a hand, helps make it easier to laydown some hands, i got hammered.

I was thinking AQ suited. 3XBB raise UTG is a good sized raise for this hand...

I think toneland played it just fine. He raised preflop with 1010. missed the flop, but no one made a stab at it. If i hit top pair here, i come out firing...no one did so i assume he felt that no one paired the queen. the turn was another undercard...he had to be feeling like he was ahead at this point, as his bet indicated. I woulda pushed his butt on the turn though and got ready to fire up another one. But, folding allows you to live and fight another hand. sure is nice to double up on first hand thru some unlucky bastard though!

I agree, I woulda pushed.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
How come no one flames blue feet for mentioning how much is invested in the pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well for starters, bluefeet should have been flamed for spending 15min replying to the OP under the assumption that the turn raise came from the blinds /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'm not sure what unfortunate personal incident you're referring to, but my "invested" statement was actually to the contrary. It was simply "it sucks you spent chips, but...", not a "hey, you only spent x amount...". It was advocating a fold DESPITE/REGARDLESS/WITHOUT CONSIDERATION to the investment.

Meh...not sure what all this is regards to, but thought I'd at least clarify. Hope it helps.

You know what i am saying...I agree totally with your post...glad someone at least says those words every now and then. i just think so many people just read what others say and take it as law. sometimes, you have to use any thought process necessary to come up to the right move, and if considering what you have invested helps you lay down a hand, then consider it.

I got flamed when a dude make a horrible call and i told him that he had nothing invested, why risk it...then BAM! I mean, he had already said he made the call, so i was trying to help him get away from hands like that...early coin flips are sng killers in my mind.

[The Don]

75 or a slowplayed set aren't enough to make me fold here.

[schwza]

i would push. i think he has a weirdly played AA/KK/AQ more than he has a weirdly played 88/QQ by a long shot. you don't want to flat call to let the caller call again on whatever draw he has. the only appeal of calling is to make sure you get chips in vs AA/KK/AQ, but you're probably going to get called anyway, so just push.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses...

I'll call 3x raise w/a couple callers 1st level w/44 on the button all day- may be a leak?

Nobody puts this guy on a higher set, eh? Also, there was a cold-caller from the sb yet to act again- doesn't scare anyone, eh?

Well, it scared me- I was convinced I'd see 88 or QQ and made a Hellmuthian fold; original raiser called. River was another 8, and my heart sunk when they went check/check. Cold-caller had a flush draw, and the raiser had TT. Me weak-tight.

My next question is, how do you like how TT played it?

[/ QUOTE ]

TT played it pretty bad. he should've just folded the turn.

I hope that was a typo when you wrote you want to get chips in against AA/KK/AQ

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope that was a typo when you wrote you want to get chips in against AA/KK/AQ

[/ QUOTE ]

on the turn they have 2/2/0 outs, so sure, i'll get chips in.

Well, i think he thought the poster here was making a move. no one raised the Queen on the flop, so he probably thought he had the best hand. ya, he played poorly, but won the pot...let me play this poorly every hand! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Am i missing something. The person posting the question had AK, and you want him to call hoping they have AA/KK/AQ??

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
Am i missing something. The person posting the question had AK, and you want him to call hoping they have AA/KK/AQ??

[/ QUOTE ]

poster turned a set of 4's

Crap, wrong thread lol...thanks for waking me up.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the responses...

I'll call 3x raise w/a couple callers 1st level w/44 on the button all day- may be a leak?

Nobody puts this guy on a higher set, eh? Also, there was a cold-caller from the sb yet to act again- doesn't scare anyone, eh?

Well, it scared me- I was convinced I'd see 88 or QQ and made a Hellmuthian fold; original raiser called. River was another 8, and my heart sunk when they went check/check. Cold-caller had a flush draw, and the raiser had TT. Me weak-tight.

My next question is, how do you like how TT played it?

[/ QUOTE ]

TT played it pretty bad. he should've just folded the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, as for the TT hand, I think a better option would have been to either make a c-bet on the flop or lead the turn and fold to much action. The turn lead / fold might be a little weak though, but I don't like a check-raise much with it either.

[whynot?]

so this seems like a clear aa/kk/qq to me. standard three times raise, etc. and i think the betting pattern to me doesnt indicate anything that would lead me one way or the other. I'd push and if he tripped up queens launch another one knowing you did the right thing