Hilger Hand Example (9h3h)

[Scuba Chuck]

<font color="blue"> I have a question on the following example (p.57) </font>

Limit $20-40
You hold 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif in the SB. Two middle players call and you call. Four players see the flop of:

9/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/club.gif

There is $80 in the pot. Should you bet or check-raise?

Answer Bet

<font color="blue"> How many players need to be in this pot before you need to consider your reverse implied odds here? My instincts here were to check, a c/r never even enters my mind. Furthermore, how different does this hand play at a $3-$6 game? </font>

[Ryan11]

At 3/6 it's a definite check imo. There is little chance that anyone holding even as little as an overcard is going to fold.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
At 3/6 it's a definite check imo. There is little chance that anyone holding even as little as an overcard is going to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good reason to bet.

[shant]

I bet. I can't count on anyone to bet so I can checkraise.

[Matt Jenko]

I'd bet out. No guarantee of a bet after you. in a 3/6 game I'd do the same.

[baronzeus]

i think i check-raise if i have any reads

[Matt Jenko]

Why is that? What turns would you be leading if called (which I presume you would be a good deal of the time)? And finally /images/graemlins/smile.gif, do considerations of bloating the pot enter your decision in any way?

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is that? What turns would you be leading if called (which I presume you would be a good deal of the time)? And finally /images/graemlins/smile.gif, do considerations of bloating the pot enter your decision in any way?

[/ QUOTE ]

well a lot of buttons have a tendency to bet when checked to so i'd like to exploit that since it's unlikely anyone will fold any overcards for only 1 bet here. also its unlikely someone hit any pairs on this board other than me so i can pretty much only expect bets from spades or the button and it will give me a good idea of what sort of hands they hold.

i am leading every non spade turn. obviously if i check-raise the button and i get a cold-caller and a spade hits im check-folding. if button raises my turn bet (with no cold callers) on a spade i will fold.

[Matt Jenko]

ta. i suppose i have always thought that with such a vulnerable hand the best way of protecting it was to bet out. I can see a c/r doing exactly that given that the button bets. again i see your need for reads to let you know with a bit more confidence that this will happen.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
i am leading every non spade turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm leading a spade turn (without cold callers). I'm assuming spade is some kind of code word for club in this thread.

[Matt Jenko]

you speak the international language of confusion very well.

[Aces McGee]

I'm betting out in either game, unless I had a good read that suggested it would be checked to a late position player who would bet, so I could c/r. That would be a difficult read to get, though, so I'm usually just betting.

Also, in a $3/$6 game, I wouldn't complete the SB with this.

-McGee

[chief444]

9-high not overly coordinated board...only 3 opponents and small pot...I think it's a definite bet. The limit doesn't really matter.

[alul]

Bet out. You will win the pot for one bet often enough (depending on your table image of course).

[newhizzle]

i bet, with no PFR you dont know where a bet is going to come from or if one will come at all, if you check and BB bets you dont want to check/raise, the pot is fairly small, just bet out and go from there

[chief444]

He will win sometimes with no turn, I agree. But he'll have the best hand here often enough that it doesn't really matter if that's a small percentage of the time. If people want to call with 6 or fewer out draws it's a good thing not a bad thing.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
9-high not overly coordinated board...only 3 opponents and small pot...I think it's a definite bet. The limit doesn't really matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I get the point. The correct thought process is to bet here. Back to my primary question. How many players in a hand do I need to worry about reverse implied odds? Perhaps, this is a bad question, as the board is so uncoordinated. If that's so, feel free to say so.

Also, regarding folding preflop. How bad does a hand have to be to fold getting 7:1 odds?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Back to my primary question. How many players in a hand do I need to worry about reverse implied odds? Perhaps, this is a bad question, as the board is so uncoordinated. If that's so, feel free to say so.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not a bad question at all. I'd say with 6 players to the flop (and obviously a ~6SB pot) there is a much stronger argument for checking and seeing what happens. With 4 oppoenent's I'm still leading out.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, regarding folding preflop. How bad does a hand have to be to fold getting 7:1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming the BB isn't really aggressive preflop, I complete with anything suited with two limpers and a 1/2 blind structure. I also complete with offsuit connectors 45o and higher and one gappers. Not saying that's right or wrong. Just what I basically do.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Back to my primary question. How many players in a hand do I need to worry about reverse implied odds? Perhaps, this is a bad question, as the board is so uncoordinated. If that's so, feel free to say so.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not a bad question at all. I'd say with 6 players to the flop (and obviously a ~6SB pot) there is a much stronger argument for checking and seeing what happens. With 4 oppoenent's I'm still leading out.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, regarding folding preflop. How bad does a hand have to be to fold getting 7:1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]
Assuming the BB isn't really aggressive preflop, I complete with anything suited with two limpers and a 1/2 blind structure. I also complete with offsuit connectors 45o and higher and one gappers. Not saying that's right or wrong. Just what I basically do.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's interesting that we have both those questions in one post. As they are somewhat inter-related. (And I'm probably gonna shoot myself in the foot here - but hey, I'm thinking.). OK, if we are going to complete in the SB with 93s, then it seems we should be leading out here with a 9 high flop all the time, reverse implied odds or not (unless the board is far more coordinated of course).

Second, what's a 1/2 blind structure? And, what are the alternatives to a 1/2 blind structure?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, if we are going to complete in the SB with 93s, then it seems we should be leading out here with a 9 high flop all the time

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why you feel that way. There are many different situations and pot sizes where I would not lead.

1/2 (one half) blind structure simply means that the SB is one half of the BB. In 3/6 the blinds are $1 and $3 normally so it's a 1/3 structure. In 15/30 the blinds are normally $10 and $15 so it's a 2/3 structure. 5/10 is a 2/5 structure.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
1/2 (one half) blind structure simply means that the SB is one half of the BB. In 3/6 the blinds are $1 and $3 normally so it's a 1/3 structure. In 15/30 the blinds are normally $10 and $15 so it's a 2/3 structure. 5/10 is a 2/5 structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, if that doesn't let you know how much limit I've played, then nothing will. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[baronzeus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
9-high not overly coordinated board...only 3 opponents and small pot...I think it's a definite bet. The limit doesn't really matter.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, I get the point. The correct thought process is to bet here. Back to my primary question. How many players in a hand do I need to worry about reverse implied odds? Perhaps, this is a bad question, as the board is so uncoordinated. If that's so, feel free to say so.

Also, regarding folding preflop. How bad does a hand have to be to fold getting 7:1 odds?

[/ QUOTE ]


i guess im wrong on this one. i guess readless you have to bet here. does hilger give an analysis of the hand?

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
I bet. I can't count on anyone to bet so I can checkraise.

[/ QUOTE ]

...yup...

[mchilger]

My analysis in the book was brief and echoed most of the responses in this thread. Basically I say that you probably have the best hand and checking is risky since your opponents might take a free card and there are a lot of overcards which can hurt you.

I compared this hand to a previous hand where we flopped a pair of Kings from the small blind and I recommended this as a good time to checkraise. Even though everyone might take a free card I am not as concerned since there is only one overcard that can hurt me and the pot is small. In the 93 example, check-raising is much more risky since there are so many overcards which can hurt.

If we were against 5 or more opponents, I would say that you would have to check and see what happens behind you since your hand isn't very strong.

Matthew

[HajiShirazu]

I always bet here in a 4 bet pot but it's probably close between that and checkraising. The more difficult question is what to do when you bet and someone raises. Let's say it ends up heads up with the person who limped first in utg+1 and is now next to last to act.