This is an unquestionable 'dont stop raisin' hand, right? [Archive]

View Full Version : This is an unquestionable 'dont stop raisin' hand, right?

KSOT

10-04-2005, 02:06 AM

Button is 32/7/2.33

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero caps, Button calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

Do any of you slow down?

lautzutao

10-04-2005, 02:07 AM

nope

Weatherhead03

10-04-2005, 02:09 AM

Check call the river. If not call the raise. Looks like AA or QQ. I'm betting AA

DCWildcat

10-04-2005, 02:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Check call the river. If not call the raise. Looks like AA or QQ. I'm betting AA

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh I think the combined (albeit low) possibilities of a 5, 9, QQ, and JJ validate a 3-bet.

10-04-2005, 02:15 AM

I would either check/call or bet/call the river. The action on the flop is kind of weird, but I think the river 3-bet is really really bad.

Weatherhead03

10-04-2005, 02:21 AM

I think its either QQ or AA. I seriously doubt villian going that nuts with JJ. I still dont think the river 3 bet is needed. If you 3-bet and are ahead, they call and you get an extra bet. If you are behind they cap and you lose an extra 2 bets. I doubt you are ahead that much.

10-04-2005, 02:25 AM

Nope, he has 44, you should fold.

Seriously, grunch....

He is screaming AA, why push this so hard? Cap the turn, then bet/call or check/call the river. I lean towards bet/call.

KSOT

10-04-2005, 02:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He is screaming AA, why push this so hard?

[/ QUOTE ]

It all happened too fast for me to stop and think. That happens to me more often than it should, I reckon. I get caught up in the moment and let my emotions bet for me =/

DCWildcat

10-04-2005, 02:28 AM

ignore, i'm in a bad mood

TomBrooks

10-04-2005, 02:34 AM

If this was one of those sites where you can put in unlimited raises on the river HU, I'd only raise one more time, then I'd call.

Wetdog

10-04-2005, 02:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (10.50 SB) 5, 4, 4 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

NOPE

KSOT

10-04-2005, 02:48 AM

Guess I went too far on this river also, eh?

Button is 28/20/3.13

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
5 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.75 BB

I don't usually slowplay, I swear (not that it mattered in this hand... actually saved me money)! I really wanted to stick it to the table bully here =/

I should quit for the night.

milesdyson

10-04-2005, 03:19 AM

1. you are tilting.
or
2. you are that guy who can never stop raising with high pairs

Paxosmotic

10-04-2005, 03:26 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: P-a-double-dizzle is UTG+1 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, P-a-double-dizzle raises, 2 folds, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB :#A500AF(Aces)/ caps, P-a-double-dizzle calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Aces bets, P-a-double-dizzle raises, CO folds, Aces 3-bets, P-a-double-dizzle caps, Aces calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Aces bets, P-a-double-dizzle raises, Aces 3-bets, P-a-double-dizzle caps, Aces calls.

River: (18.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Aces bets, P-a-double-dizzle raises, Aces 3-bets, P-a-double-dizzle caps, Aces calls.

Final Pot: 26.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Aces has Ah As (two pair, aces and sixes).
P-a-double-dizzle has 7c 7h (full house, sevens full of sixes).
Outcome: P-a-double-dizzle wins 26.25 BB. 

I love people who can't fathom that aces could possibly be behind.

KSOT

10-05-2005, 01:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
1. you are tilting.
or
2. you are that guy who can never stop raising with high pairs

[/ QUOTE ]

Mannn... it's not like I had unimproved 10s with overcards out. I had the 2nd best pocket pair and filled up on the turn. I don't see how playing it strong all the way makes me the guy who can't fold high pairs =/

milesdyson

10-05-2005, 01:47 AM

i was talking about the other hand you posted...

KSOT

10-05-2005, 01:53 AM

Oh... right you are then.

Tilt + anger at the 20% PFR guy who had been beating up on me.

+ general idiocy =/

bottomset

10-05-2005, 03:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1. you are tilting.
or
2. you are that guy who can never stop raising with high pairs

[/ QUOTE ]

Mannn... it's not like I had unimproved 10s with overcards out. I had the 2nd best pocket pair and filled up on the turn. I don't see how playing it strong all the way makes me the guy who can't fold high pairs =/

[/ QUOTE ]

because you don't spend enough time thinking about what your opponent's hand range is

10-05-2005, 03:56 AM

His pre-flop 3-bet, then call on the flop and raise on the turn should have set off alarms. I'd still bet/raise the turn, but definitely not the river! Since you're really only behind AA, I'd bet/call the river (check-calling it might be better though since villain has played this like aces the whole time).

10-05-2005, 05:05 AM

I'd just call down after the trip 4's on the board. I think he has AA so he puts in the PFR, slowplays his two-pair on the flop, and sees his fours full of aces as a capping hand on the turn and river. That being said, there is no way I fold this hand.

10-05-2005, 08:41 AM

What button had on the second hand?

imported_The Vibesman

10-05-2005, 08:48 AM

I'd slow down on the river actually, probably bet/call.

jrz1972

10-05-2005, 09:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
His pre-flop 3-bet, then call on the flop and raise on the turn should have set off alarms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. We can disagree on precisely where Hero should have slowed down, but at some point Hero needs to realize that villain knows he has a big pair and is still merrily blasting away.

KSOT

10-05-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What button had on the second hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set of 7s.

3-bets me with pocket 7s... THE RAGE!

milesdyson

10-05-2005, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What button had on the second hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set of 7s.

3-bets me with pocket 7s... THE RAGE!

[/ QUOTE ]
um villain played his hand perfectly. 77 looks way good against an MP3 open raise.

homebrewer

10-05-2005, 03:21 PM

I find that whenever a hand like this occurs, reads are VERY important. Without reads, I would guess that if you approached these kinds of hands(that don't really happen that many times in 1 session) the SAME way each time (i.e., slowing down or continuing to jam the pot) then you'd probably end up about even - all other things constant (same number of players in the hand, no reads, etc). I've got to show down and seen AK, AQs, AA, QQ, JJ, and TT in these situations. Generally, though. Against LAGish villians, I'm playing this fast. Against a tighty, I'm slowing down on the river.

bottomset

10-05-2005, 06:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What button had on the second hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Set of 7s.

3-bets me with pocket 7s... THE RAGE!

[/ QUOTE ]

um unless you are very rocky, this is a perfectly standard 3bet OTB .. he played the hand better than you did by far, though I'm pretty sure he needs to 3bet the turn

KSOT

10-06-2005, 05:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
um unless you are very rocky, this is a perfectly standard 3bet OTB

[/ QUOTE ]

um what?

Where can I find the part about reraising with mid pockets in SSHE? IIRC, it never says to reraise with less than 10s pre-flop, regardless of position. Do I have to unlearn more of this forum's bible now?

Shillx

10-06-2005, 05:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
um unless you are very rocky, this is a perfectly standard 3bet OTB

[/ QUOTE ]

um what?

Where can I find the part about reraising with mid pockets in SSHE? IIRC, it never says to reraise with less than 10s pre-flop, regardless of position. Do I have to unlearn more of this forum's bible now?

[/ QUOTE ]

3 folds to a maniac who raises. You are next to act in MP2 with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Your play?

All fold to an unknown button who raises. You have 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the SB. Your move?

Poker is not a big chart dude. You have to recognize the situation and figure out what play is best. While SSH is correct in many circumstances, there are many times where it doesn't fit. Poker is a complicated game...they can't fit it all into a book. If they could, the game would be pointless to take part in.

Brad

KSOT

10-06-2005, 03:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
3 folds to a maniac who raises. You are next to act in MP2 with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Your play?

All fold to an unknown button who raises. You have 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the SB. Your move?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably raise and call.

I don't see how that justifies reraising a tight MP3 with 7s...

Felipe

10-06-2005, 03:35 PM

http://www.oldstuffnews.com/images/as04-36-raisin%20book.jpg

Don't stop, Raisin!

bottomset

10-06-2005, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3 folds to a maniac who raises. You are next to act in MP2 with 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Your play?

All fold to an unknown button who raises. You have 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in the SB. Your move?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably raise and call.

I don't see how that justifies reraising a tight MP3 with 7s...

[/ QUOTE ]

um calling with 99 in the SB against a button open-raise is pretty bad, you absolutely need to 3bet, first off the hand plays better HU, than 3way, secondly you take the initiative in the hand, and can often make your opponent fold incorrectly.

as for 77, evidently against you 3betting 77 OTB is a bad (re:this isn't a good thing) because you don't adjust your open-raising standards properly, and are too tight, you should have a fairly broad raising range from MP3

KSOT

10-06-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
as for 77, evidently against you 3betting 77 OTB is a bad (re:this isn't a good thing) because you don't adjust your open-raising standards properly, and are too tight, you should have a fairly broad raising range from MP3

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried to listen to advice like this in the past, but every time I get fancy and put it up with mediocre hands I end up hitting top pair with someone else who has a better kicker, or being called the whole way by an overpair. I always seem to get screwed in one way or another when I play weak hands strongly, so I rarely bother anymore. Isn't my goal at the microlimits to play ABC poker anyway? Why shouldn't I just push my strong hands for value? Why try to take control with bad hands when nobody ever folds anyway?

livinitup0

10-06-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Button is 32/7/2.33

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
4 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, MP3 folds, Hero caps, Button calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

River: (14.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 22.25 BB

Do any of you slow down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the river. AA or 4X

bottomset

10-07-2005, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I tried to listen to advice like this in the past, but every time I get fancy and put it up with mediocre hands I end up hitting top pair with someone else who has a better kicker, or being called the whole way by an overpair. I always seem to get screwed in one way or another when I play weak hands strongly, so I rarely bother anymore. Isn't my goal at the microlimits to play ABC poker anyway? Why shouldn't I just push my strong hands for value? Why try to take control with bad hands when nobody ever folds anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the most common problem I see with .5/1 players, and the biggest reason they struggle as they move up, is that they don't appreciate position enough, and don't make adjustments to

A. their open-raising standards
B. their blind defense standards

I see way to many stat posts with ASB @ 14%, or FBB >75, granted blind-defense and blind-stealing aren't very important at .5/1, if you table select good, but this is the biggest stumbling block IMO when it comes to moving up to the tighter games.

the main problem is that you can't really make rules for stealing and defending, since so much of it is villian-dependent, I might have a huge stealing range against 2tight-predictable blinds, and a fairly tight range against better, or very Laggy blinds, same applies to blind defense, if Mr. Rock or a 60/2 open-raises from the button, I'm gonna tread pretty lightly(some rocks do open up some, but a 60/2 almost never opens up because of position), where as I'll play a lot of hands against players that open-raise way too much, or don't adjust and play very fit or fold postflop. There are some really good posts about blind-play and stealing blinds by players far superior than me, I'd suggest reading up on those, Peter_rus had a bunch of good ones, I don't have links on hand.

as for the nobody ever folds bit, yeah they fold far less than they do higher, but they also rarely raise, and tend to be very obvious with there play, so you can control how the hand goes postflop, I'm not suggesting a balls to the wall, betdown Qhigh after openraising preflop, if the board is bad, or you don't have the best hand, and won't get them to fold, take advantage of your position, and take the free shot at improving to the best hand, they will give you far too many chances to outplay them postflop