This donkey never folds a set. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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fish43

10-04-2005, 01:25 AM

Winning Low Limit Hold'em makes it clear that a set should almost always try to see a showdown. I good donkey tries to get to that showdown as expensively as possible. The following hand we see Donkey hero getting a set.

Ultimate Bet 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Donkey is UTG with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
Donkey calls, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Donkey calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players)
SB bets, Donkey calls, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Button raises, SB calls, Donkey calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (9 BB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Donkey checks, UTG+1 checks, Button bets, SB calls, Donkey raises, UTG+1 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (17 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Donkey bets, UTG+1 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

I really didn't want to put in two bets preflop but can't resist playing pairs from UTG. This donkey loves pocket pairs.

Flopped a top set and my plan is to bet it out instead of slow playing. But the SB bets out first. I call going for over callers, I'll pop it on the turn when the bets are bigger. Then the button raises and I put him on over cards with a flush draw. Drat. I got the best hand but I might need a full house to win this one at the showdown. I decide to slow down and hope for the board to pair. That really was my plan but the Donkey style doesn't allow for thinking.

The flush hit and like a good donkey I decide to check-raise with the second best hand. I don't think it gives me more information because the flush may not 3-bet hoping to keep all three players in the hand. I'm going to the showdown with this hand. I should probably try and get there as cheap as possible. Maybe I'll catch one of my 10 outs on the river, 8, 222, 444, or AAA.

I'm trying to get to the showdown cheaply so I go ahead and bet the river over card. At least it's not a fourth spade. Nobody folds or raises... I can't have the best hand?

Weatherhead03

10-04-2005, 01:30 AM

Raise the flop. Charge the flush draw and the spade draw. If they want to pay to see their flush let them call 2 cold.

10-04-2005, 01:33 AM

I'm not going to go into your play b/c it is too hard to read your post, but in general you should never fold a set unless you have a super strong reason to believe you're beaten.

2+2 wannabe

10-04-2005, 01:34 AM

I like the first flop call - but you have to raise it when it comes back to you the second time

bet the turn - you can't give a free card here, and you have a lot of outs if you're behind (which I'm doubtful you are)

easy river bet - you're good WAY MORE than 25% of the time

you didn't play it horribly....the river bet is really good IMO - I don't get your problem with your play (other than checking the turn)

10-04-2005, 01:52 AM

First post on 2+2, lemme know if I go wrong.

Easy call preflop, any reason why opening would be out of order?

I raise the flop here every time. The pot is large enough that any spade draw is calling regardless, and pairs w/overcards or gut shots (or just bare overcards and GSSDs, at that limit 6-handed) will be calling as well.

On the turn, I bet and call a raise (is this too weak-tight?) If the board doesn't pair, check-call if the turn was raised, if not, lead turn, river.

Eeegah

10-04-2005, 01:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Charge the flush draw and the spade draw. If they want to pay to see their flush let them call 2 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a reason to raise the flop.

10-04-2005, 02:03 AM

Well played.

I would probably call-3bet the flop when given the opportunity, but playing it your way disguised your hand and allowed you to get more bets in on the turn so its debatable.

Duerig

10-04-2005, 02:04 AM

I think you need to 3 bet that flop.

Weatherhead03

10-04-2005, 02:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not a reason to raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the pot is big enough that you need to protect your hand and charge the straight and flush draws. You have a large equity edge here. Make them pay.

Can you inform me as to why else you should raise?

TomBrooks

10-04-2005, 02:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I really didn't want to put in two bets preflop but can't resist playing pairs from UTG.
Flopped a top set and my plan is to bet it out instead of slow playing. But the SB bets out first. I call going for over callers, I'll pop it on the turn when the bets are bigger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Calling preflop raise standard.

SB betting out was the perfect set up for you to raise on this dangerous flop. Don't go for more bets, you will often lose the whole pot doing so.

The pot is big. Maximize your chances of winning it. Make gutshots and single spade holders fold or call incorrectly. Slowplaying here will cost you when you get sucked out on by someone that you could have gotten to fold or pay you extra for all the times they miss. Thats how you get their money.

If you don't raise, you don't charge them for when they miss, but they take the whole pot away from you when they hit and you let them do so cheaply.

After you raise the flop, hand plays differently.

lautzutao

10-04-2005, 02:24 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is not a reason to raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the pot is big enough that you need to protect your hand and charge the straight and flush draws. You have a large equity edge here. Make them pay.

Can you inform me as to why else you should raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are raising here for value(if you choose to raise in this spot at all). You don't need to protect your hand when you are this far ahead.

If you're going to just call here, how can you not reraise if it gets back to you? This is a dream scenario. But personally I'd just raise first time around. I'll get enough callers behind me to make it profitable.

SoftcoreRevolt

10-04-2005, 02:48 AM

Sure it is. Flush draws only will call bets when they are drawing. They will not call bets on the river when they miss. So when we slow play a set, we are missing a chance to get extra bets in from people who will absolutely definately call them, along with the other people who may get trapped or like seeing turns.

milesdyson

10-04-2005, 03:18 AM

raise preflop, and then bet and raise your top set on the flop...

calling the flop and check raising that turn makes no sense whatsoever.

bjarne

10-04-2005, 09:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
raise preflop, and then bet and raise your top set on the flop...

calling the flop and check raising that turn makes no sense whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

jrz1972

10-04-2005, 09:42 AM

Raise the flop. Keep raising until it's capped.

Eeegah

10-04-2005, 10:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Can you inform me as to why else you should raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pure, evil, capitalistic value. By "charging" flush draws you're assuming that a) there is a flush draw and b) Raising won't actually be +EV for them. I made a longer post about what I mean here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=micro&Number=3552468&Forum =,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=35 51273&Search=true&where=&Name=35023&daterange=&new erval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#P ost3552468), and in the link I reference in that post. It's semantics to be sure as either way it's a raise, but the whole "charge them flush draws raaaaargh" argument is one that really grates on me.

We can also raise to chase out gutshots, who actually might fold for us.

PS: I'd estimate that there's about a 25% chance of a flush draw being out there. The actual value for a 5-handed game when we hold one of the flush cards is between 16% and 33% depending on if these guys play any two or any suited.

Absolution

10-04-2005, 10:26 AM

Preflop is fine.

You have to raise the flop. The pot is already big enough and you get the opportunity to face them with 2 cold. Push your edge and get those weak draws out of there. Then, you cap if button raises. You have the best hand possible right now.

The turn would probably play out much differently if you raised the flop, but you'd be leading out with value bets and calling down if someone wakes up with something.

Absolution

10-04-2005, 10:28 AM

Hehe, charge the flush draw. I think I talked about the resurgence of bad habits yesterday.

Yes, charge the flush draws who win money with every bet.

davelin

10-04-2005, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Charge the flush draw and the spade draw. If they want to pay to see their flush let them call 2 cold.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're charging the 2-5 outers. OESD and flush draws are your equity companions to the river. If I had a flush draw, I'm perfectly happy to see multiple bets go in this multi-way pot.