y do I ...

Played in my first NL O/8 last night. I made several mistakes - quite a learning experience and I'm looking forward to more of these.


My question: Why do I take an action after I recognize it is not the best actin to take.


25 players left (out of 55) in tourney that pays 9 places - about $2,800 1st place. Blinds are 1K-2K. I'm bb with 4K (below average stack at my table) left after posting. I have JT98 and check after 5 players call. Flop comes AJ7 rainbow. Checked to UTG who bets 5K and gets 3 callers to me. I hear a voice that reminds me of a post I saw on 2+2 "NL is not a drawing game" but I call anyway. Sure enough, nothing hits and I am toast.


Any perspective on the reasons for taking an action that I know is not the correct one would be appreciated. I know this is the biggest leak in my game.


Thanks for your comments.

"My question: Why do I take an action after I recognize it is not the best action to take."


Hmmmm...interesting question. And at the moment when you were taking the action that you recognized was not the best action to take, were you really really really really really rrrreeeeaaaalllly playing to win? Or was there another part of you that had another agenda?

Oh Jedi Knight, I bow to thy wisdom and perspective:)


I took some time to review my inner dialogue, feelings and other factors to see what I went through during the dicision/action process to see why I went against what I knew. Lot's to evaluate, but appearently the part of me that can create impulse action is more interested in being a star every hand than in winning the tourney. There is also the feeling that if I fold and the cards unfold to make this particular hand a winner that I will feel like a total schmuck.


As stated above, this type of action is my biggest leak, leading to many frustrating results. There is still more inner work to do, but at least I feel like I have opened a door to understanding y do I ...

Master Obi - I'm not allowed to reveal his last name - has asked me to ask you, In how many words, tonalities, and ways can the creative and devious part of you be made to tell the part of you, that can create impulse action, to consistently make you feel like a schmuck instead?


And in how many ways can the winner part of you be made to tell the part of you, who is capable of having the discipline, patience, and self-control to win and make money in tournaments, to want to feel like the star that it deserves to be? /images/wink.gif

There have been a few 2+2 authors who have written that playing too many hands up front is the single biggest mistake most players make.


Playing too many hands beyond the flop is probably the second. You can avoid many of the errors that can occur by this alone, as you will not feel forced to just call all the way with your weak starting hands. To understand what that all means you should probably head to the directory and order a book or two. I don't own a lightsabre, but you may wish to evaluate your goals in playing poker. Just the fact that you asked the question makes me believe that you know your game is weak and you wish to improve it. Do you have standards when you ask a guy/girl out to dinner? If so, you should consider some standards when you get your first cards in a poker game.


To tell you the truth, I have no standards when it comes to the after-dinner festivities, but I do have excellent starting standards for my poker!

DDG - thanks for posting a response - I have read a few of the books and quite a few articles, posts, etc. I have been playing limit O/8 for a few years and feel most of my game is actually quite strong. I generally can outplay most opponents post. I do recognize that my weaknesses are generally around my emotions and impulses, rather than my logic and thought processes.


I am new to NL, and understand that I have a lot to learn - raise sizes, calls, control of emotions, etc. If my success at limit is any indication, I will become an excellent NL player.


Depending on my position at the table (poker & dinner) my choices can vary, but when I am BB with no raise, I try to play what I am delt to the best of my ability. Sometimes the pretty ones are disasters and the ugly ones turn out the best:)

Please tell Obi that I have observed infinite ways for the various parts to influence each other. This extends beyond my poker playing into all parts of my life.


For me, it is an ongoing learning process, with my main focus being to stay in the center of the storm of thoughts and feelings that can so easily rage out of control. In this I have found a certain amount of peace and happiness. There are still parts that have not understood the real priorities of a situation that want to be in charge.


When I am able to recognize the process while it is happening, I can work with the various audio, visual and sensory modalities these various parts manifest to create a more harmonious experience. When I can't, I just yield to the influences of the moment.


I do appreciate your perspective and Obi's questions. I resolve to put the deserving winner in me in charge of my next session.

"My question: Why do I take an action after I recognize it is not the best actin to take."


ibelucky4u2 - For the particular hand and situation, I believe you played correctly under the circumstances. Yes, the hand was probably your finale. (You may recall I had estimated you were about a 2 to 1 underdog to survive). However, at the time you were short stacked and being offered very favorable odds and the (admittedly risky) chance to build your stack to a respectable level. Scoop the main pot and you would have a non-stop ticket to the final table. Even if you only split the main pot you would have survival chips for multiple rounds. Win all or half of the pot and you would have plenty of time to wait for a good hand and enough chips to steal some blinds as you waited.


Now you’re second guessing yourself, which is natural.


At the time, you had doubts about playing the hand, which is also natural. You realized that if you missed, the tournament was over for you. I have doubts about playing almost every hand I voluntarily play at that stage of a tournament. I’ve been kicked in the teeth so much with A-2-3-4 that I almost wince when I look down and see it. I know the hand has a positive expectation, thus I almost always play it, but I always hear that little voice when I do.


You should be pleased that you didn’t give in to those nagging doubts (that little voice). You should be pleased that you played the hand when you recognized you were getting good odds by playing it.


Yes you would have had a better chance of surviving for a rew more rounds if you folded the hand. No, you would not have much of a chance of winning the tournament if you hid your head under the covers.


All of us (who are not fools) have fears. The extent to which we able to overcome our fears is part of the measure of our characters. You showed courage in the way you took advantage of the favorable odds and siezed the opportunity to play the (scarey) hand.


You win some, you lose some.


Just my opinion.


Buzz

Buzz - thanks for your response - I knew I was getting great odds on my call - and if I win, even half the pot, I am in good shape to go to final table.


The question I was posing dealt with another internal situation that I have noticed about myself in more than poker situations. There are many internal "parts" to all of us that we can access for information. I have one that I percieve as psychic in nature, and is invariably right, no matter what the odds or appearent situation. That was the part that reminded me that "NL is not a drawing game" - the logical part that calculated the odds and position and if I won, etc. was the part that called.


Sometimes the odds do not neccesarily mean that a call is in the cards /images/smile.gif

iblucky4u2 - "I have one that I percieve as psychic in nature, and is invariably right, no matter what the odds or appearent situation."


Wow! Interesting... Very interesting.


Some people are very good at reading other people. I have always thought they are perceptive to the body language, mannerisms, and expressions of others. There is much we don't understand about how animals communicate with each other. There may be an as yet undiscovered sixth sense. We may all have this sixth sense to varying degrees, just as some of us have better eyesight than others.


I don't know.


I have hunches, either at the poker table or away from it, and am usually right about them, but I have never heard or sensed a voice directed only at me. When I wrote about "that little voice," it was metaphorically.


I think if I did occasionally hear such a voice or "feel The Force," I would place my faith in The Force - complete faith, at least until The Force mis-led me. I think that's what you should do.


May The Force be with you.


Buzz

I’ve been kicked in the teeth so much with A-2-3-4 that I almost wince when I look down and see it. I know the hand has a positive expectation, thus I almost always play it,


Almost always play it? When don't you play it? This might make for an interesting thread on this or another forum.


P.S. The next 2+2 forum should be the Bad Beat forum. I have some tales to tell about A234!

Hi Mack - "Almost always play it? When don't you play it?"


Good eyes. I wondered if anyone would pick up on the "almost."


If I had a medium stack in a tournament and was a virtual shoo-in to make the final table if I simply kept my cool, I would not play the hand. This would be especially true if I had just finished the blinds and was one seat away from making the final table (and thus the money), and if playing the hand would jeopardize my stack.


In a ring game (or tournament) if a rock who only played hands like A23X or A24X voluntarily entered the action ahead of me and if more players than usual entered the action (indicating less liklihood of getting low cards on the board and a greater liklihood of getting quartered or sixthed for low), I might muck the hand if it was non-suited to the ace.


Buzz