Newcomer's questions re: lingo and playing w/maniac in game

[patstap]

I'm a newcomer to the game of Hold 'Em and would appreciate any replies and tips.

Please define a couple of terms I don't understand:

Cold call (as opposed to simply "call"):
Smooth call:
Varience:

I'm three hours away from live poker (in St.Louis, Mo. USA) and have made the trip 3 times in the past few weeks. My only experience with casino poker.

This past weekend I was in a 1-4-4-8 game with a player who I believe is referred to as a "maniac". On virtually every hand, he raised the limit every time the bet was to him, regardless of his cards.

When he was lucky enough to win, he won big pots, but he was constantly leaving the table to buy more chips.

The maniac was directly to my right. I was dealt AA in LP. EP calls, MP bets 4, two callers, Maniac raises to 8, I raise to 12, called to maniac who caps it with a raise to 16, all call, seven to the flop. BB and SB fold.

Flop is 2c 4h 10s:

MP bets 4, two callers, maniac raises, I reraise, called to maniac who reraises, I cap it at $16. We lose one player and six go to the turn.

Turn is 2c 4h 10s (9s).

Betting pattern is the same, capped at $32, six to the river.

River is 2c 4h 10s (9s) (5s).

Betting pattern repeats, again capped at $32 with the exception of caller #2 going all in with his last $16.

Was I correct in reraising throughout the hand? You could not get a real feel of players hands because they all knew the maniac and I were going to build the pot to it's maximum.

Caller #2 was a calling station all night, couple that with the maniac, and I still ended up down $135 after five hours (lost a later "normal" hand with AA after the maniac had left).

How should one play with a maniac? Tighter, looser, ignore his betting, etc.?

Thanks in advance for any advice.


Results:

EP was chasing a straight with 78o

MP had KK.

Caller #1 had JJ.

Caller #2 had 3s 8s catching a runner runner flush, beating my aces.

Maniac had trash.

Now, my instincts tell me that there is some money to be made with the loose callers and a maniac in the game, but I had $98 in this pot of over $500 and felt robbed.

I console myself by thinking I'll usually win in games like this, but....


ps: I left the casino at 5:00am and the valet driver wrecked my car as he brought it from the parking lot. Hit a fire hydrant. Got an estimate today of $4700 and valet parking company will probably total my car and give me a fraction of what it's worth to me. Jeesh!

[RockLobster]

Hi palindrome--

Cold call (as opposed to simply "call"): Calling more than 1 bet.
Smooth call: Merely calling with a strong hand.
Variance: Mixing up your play so as to not be too predictable.

I hope someone else can help with your other questions, I'm going to bed...

[HDPM]

I think variance refers to fluctuations, not mixing up your play. You will have to get mason's Gambling Theory And Other Topics book someday.

In an aggressive game you must play fewer hands. You have to just play hands that can make big hands. You had a great hand w/ AA against the maniac when you could re-raise after his raise. Didn't work. You won't win a majority of the hands even w/ AA when everybody calls capped pots to the river. But you still can come out ahead because you are playing such superior hands. You need to get Holdem Poker For Advances Players 21st Century Ed. and study it. Early on you should look at the loose games section in the book because it explains loose games and aggressive games and how to adjust. Loose aggressive games will add to your variance and will be frustrating when you lose. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[SittingBull]

lose about 30% of the time when u hold A's But when u do win,u will win a lot more than u will lose over time. The problem is the emotional trauma experienced by short-term losses.Many players start to play badly after experiencing such losses. Be very careful NOT to do the same. In games like loose/aggressive ones,U will need a lot of chips to carry u thru the unusual variance(fluctuations) .
However,drawing hands go up in value with many players seeing the flop. Hence,I would recommend playing medium suited connectors and pairs--even 2's. The implied odds is excellent if U obtain a good draw or flop a set. But u need to hit the flop hard.
If u are involved in this type of game,u will either be a big winner or a big loser at the end of your session.
And,again,u will need much more than the usual amount of chips in front of u to withstand the "stormy weather".
HappyPokering, /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif
SittingBull

[RockLobster]

I think variance refers to fluctuations, not mixing up your play.

Yes, you are correct, sorry about the mixup.

[Pauliman]

lose about 30% of the time when u hold A's But when u do win,u will win a lot more than u will lose over time.

I would say first of all that u will lose more often than 30% with AA ( last seesion i played 10 hours and had AA 7 times, winning only ONCE with em) and more importantly You ALWAYS LOSE MORE on AA then when u win with them, think about it. U are usually raising with AA and tend to ride it further than other hands, and AA usually gets cracked on turn or river ( meaning u have more money in the pot to lose) however when u win with AA u usually are in a shorthanded pot or win it preflop or flop( therefore a smaller win in comparison to your losses)

I agree with poster when he says u should play more suited connectors and also any small pairs ( especially 22, cause when a 2 hits the flop most wont expect u to have a set of deuces) Hold em for advanced players covers all these situations and more,

best of luck

pauli

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
...You ALWAYS LOSE MORE on AA then when u win with them

[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT?!?! This statement means AA is a long-term losing hand...

I think you misspoke /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Also, with a maniac in the game (or with other players who play aggressively) suited connectors are not what you're looking for. Even if you get a good flop, most often it will still leave you with a drawing hand, but against aggressive players you'll need to put multiple bets in on each street in order to complete your draw. In these loose-aggressive games, you'll want high cards if you can be on the maniacs left and reraise him preflop to knock out everyone else; you can also play any pair if you know 4 or more people will see the flop. If you hit your set on the flop, you'll make a ton, if you miss your set, you can fold.

In a loose-passive game, suited connectors are great, because many times the flop and/or turn will be checked around, allowing you to draw cheaply to your hand.

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
but I had $98 in this pot of over $500 and felt robbed.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you weren't pushed the $64 side pot, then you were robbed /forums/images/icons/smile.gif [According to your post, Caller 2 was the winner, but he only put in $16 on the river while the rest of you put in $32. This would create a $64 side pot (because I'm assuming EP folded when he missed his draw)]

Yes, you played correctly. Yes, you'll usually win in games like this. Yes, you'll need to know what "variance" means because against a maniac, you'll have plenty of it /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Jeffro]

So what you are saying here that AA has a negative expected value?? IMHO I know this statment is dead wrong, under your scenario why play AA.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Worst case scenario - 9 opponents who stay to the river - AA wins 31% of the time. That means that even if you play AA like a monkey, betting and raising at every opportunity regardless of the number of opponents or the cards on the board, you are a long-term winner. By applying human analytics to your play (hand reading, bet patterns), your EV goes up.

The reason *some* people lose more w/AA over the short term is more a case of not being able to fold them and save money.

[Pauliman]

...You ALWAYS LOSE MORE on AA then when u win with them

let me clarify what i meant when stating that. i MEANT that u always Lose more dollar wise on AA then when u win with them. meaning u rake smaller pots when u win with AA and lose bigger pots when u lose AA.

I never meant that AA has negative expectations. I said that the poster said u will only lose 30% of the time with AA and i believe that to be Wrong.

As far as being on the maniac's left and isolating the other good players, that will only work for so long before the better players catch on, also in this guy's example he did just that (re-raises) and yet got alot of caller, especially as he continued to re-raise and the maniac did the same, now they are giving "correct" pot odds for those in the hand that are chasing a flush or straight. I think he shoulda backed off of the raising when it became apparent that no one was budging.

fianlly, the other poster that said u lose more on AA if u are unable to fold, he is correct, and in my example of having AA 7 times in my session and only winning 1 time, i did fold my AA twice besides.

regards

pauli

[pudley4]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
u always Lose more dollar wise on AA then when u win with them. meaning u rake smaller pots when u win with AA and lose bigger pots when u lose AA.


[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't see your point - in the hand above, there are only 14 bad river cards for the poster: 2 K's, 2 J's, 4 6's, and 6 other spades. The other 22 cards give him a huge pot. Even with all these people in the hand, he's still a 3-2 favorite to win.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I think he shoulda backed off of the raising when it became apparent that no one was budging.


[/ QUOTE ]

So? If he's the favorite, he should keep raising. He's raising for value, not to try to shut people out. We've established that on the turn, he's a 22-14 favorite to win. That means for each bet that goes in, he gets slightly more than 3/5 of it. So for every $8 bet that goes in, he gets approx $4.80. So if the maniac bets and all 5 opponents just call, his EV for that round only is $20.80 ($4.80 per bet, times 6 bets, minus the $8 he puts in). If he raises and everyone calls, his EV is $41.60 ($4.80 per bet, times 12 bets, minus the $16 he puts in). If it's capped (4 bets), his EV is $83.20. Sure, the draws might be getting correct odds, but he's making so much money he has to raise.

[patstap]

You're right, I did get the side pot, but it was smaller than my original post would suggest.

When recalling the hand later that evening, I was trying to determine exactly how large the pot had grown and had forgotten that one player had gone all in.

I think he was only a few dollars short, rather than 16, because the side pot was pretty dismal compared to the main pot.

He did moan to the pit boss that it cost him almost $50 because he had ended up short stacked.

I was so steamed that I got beat on the river, I considered the side pot insignificant and forgot it again when making my original post.

Thanks for all the replies and food for thought.

[lefty rosen]

Your day sounded like a day from hell, cracked bullets with a runner runner desperation pull, then getting your car severly detented by an idiot who shouldn't have a drivers licensce. You played the hand perfect, I regard the judgement of every other players as weak at best, except for the kongs guy,( maybe you were over playing queens or johnnies) he was forced to call but the others were totally whacko. But at low limits those beats are the rule not the exception. If I find there is a crackhead on autoraise and the table is loose to begin with I won't play live its not worth the bad beats, calling stations won't fold anything thinking that the crackhead and a high pockets player are both crackheads. You get too many whacko beats.

[lefty rosen]

I think he meant that you will lose more per pot, than you will win per pot, that's true if an ace hits the board even bad players don't chase against an ace, when its been pre-flop raised or counter raised. Well most bad players won't( that guy you described would be a GA case if I have ever seen one).

[deathtoau]

So what you are saying here that AA has a negative expected value??

Unimproved AA will only win 33% of the time. That is the difference. If you don't chase out the other player, you will get out drawn 67% of the time.