Betting into the PFR (Open-ended question) [Archive]

Aaron W.

10-03-2005, 09:05 PM

You've got a couple cards in mid or late position and you choose to limp into the pot after a couple other limpers. The player immediately after you raises, buys the button, and all the limpers call (including you, of course). The flop comes down giving you a decent hand that's not great (ie not TPTK, two pair, or other very strong hands). The action is checked to you.

When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples.

Now let's say you limp in very early position (UTG or UTG+1), the player after you raises and he gets a couple coldcallers. The flop gives you a decent-not-great hand.

When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples.

Nfinity

10-03-2005, 09:29 PM

Alright, I'll bite. Not promising perfection though.

Here's an example of when I will check:

3 Limpers to me in MP2 w/ T /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif CO, a loose raiser in the late positions raises, rest fold.

Flop comes down J /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

We may be still behind here but there are a ton of outs on the Turn that improve us. Getting a free card doesn't hurt us all that much either for that reason.

I'm actually interested in what you have to say about this because I waffled between betting and checking when I made this up. Mostly because our T outs might be counterfeit sometimes.

Online247

10-03-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

I will bet into pfr with second pair (not 3rd pair) when I feel the board didn't hit him. Example non AKQ and I'm firing and hoping he raises to clear out the field, if he just has overcards.

I'm check/raising flushdraws and OESD. I'm check/calling gutshots, and calling for two pair too. And possibly whatever other backdoor draws I might have. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Now let's say you limp in very early position (UTG or UTG+1), the player after you raises and he gets a couple coldcallers. The flop gives you a decent-not-great hand.

When do you bet into the preflop raiser and when do you check to see what happens? Give examples.

[/ QUOTE ]

This question seems broad, but in general I'm giving the cold-callers credit for a better starting hand. I'd play flush draws/oesds the same way as I stated in the first question. I have a harder time betting into a pfr if the board is coordinated with broadway cards, just because if I've something like second pair, and the pfr raises my bet, well I can't expect the cold-callers to fold since they seem to like cold calling in the first place. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Check/calling sounds good in this situation for second pair hands and gutshots with a backdoor flush draw or something.

Nfinity

10-03-2005, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I will bet into pfr with second pair (not 3rd pair) when I feel the board didn't hit him. Example non AKQ and I'm firing and hoping he raises to clear out the field, if he just has overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered this when I fabricated my hand, but villian would have to have exactly AK for me to be ahead when he raises, otherwise I am behind and his raise has probably eliminated all the padding for any draws.

Aaron W.

10-04-2005, 11:18 AM

The action is taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3566334&page=1&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1). Most of the comments this hand received were focused on the lack of a preflop raise. I skimmed the posts and nobody talked about betting into the preflop raiser.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets...

sean c

10-04-2005, 11:29 AM

Wow good example. Betting is okay here i would probably check and see what the action is back to me. Cosidering you bet i like a bet/call flop and bet the turn line assuming you loose the other two players or no one shows any strenght on the flop. Iguess the problem with checking here is pfr could bet and be raised by co with a hand we are ahead of and that puts you in a tough spot.

There is really no easy way to play this one.

sean c

10-04-2005, 11:35 AM

I also think in your example hand strengths are not going to be clear until the turn so i think how you play that street is probably more important here. Hand protection is not to critical here the only thing we may fold on the flop is a gutshot.

tiltaholic

10-04-2005, 11:39 AM

adsman

10-04-2005, 11:48 AM

In both your examples you have excellent relative position in regards to the PFR, ie he is on your immediate left. You can use this to your advantage in two ways if it is a passive table. You will almost always be acting last so the possibilities of a raise behind you are slim, therefore letting you see the Turn with marginal hands cheaply. You can also use him to knock players out if you so desire by betting into him hoping that he raises.
This is another excellent example why you want to have TAGs on your left.

Fantam

10-04-2005, 11:56 AM

I would bet into the preflop raiser, so that a reraise would give gut-shots incorrect odds to call.

Flush draws will call anyway, but apart from trying to force out any gut-shot, you then appear to be behind any Tx,AK,AQ or AT, but ahead of any other made hand.

So if betting into the preflop raiser resulted in his reraise and the hand becoming heads up, I would then plan on check/calling to showdown.

SlantNGo

10-04-2005, 11:58 AM

At first, I thought "Great flop bet", but now I'm debating whether to bet the flop, or to check.

Advantage of checking:
- MP2 bets out and both CO and SB act before us... this allows us to raise for value if they call, and just check/call it to the river if they fold (WA/WB scenario)

Advantage of betting:
- MP2 could raise, driving out gutshots. It would be best if he would raise with a worse hand, but even if he raises with a better hand (i.e. AK), driving out a gutshot may buy us an additional 3 outs (Jacks) to a better 2-pair.
- If MP2 calls, we can be quite confident that we hold the best hand. Most players will not slow play a hand like AK here, with the flop being paired.

I dunno... a read could swing me either way.

Aaron W.

10-04-2005, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So if betting into the preflop raiser resulted in his reraise and the hand becoming heads up, I would then plan on check/calling to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he raises the flop and bets the turn and river, how often do you think your hand will be best?

MrWookie47

10-04-2005, 12:25 PM

I used to think about betting into preflop raisers to protect my 2nd pair or whatever, but I don't think it's a good plan. You are hoping he raises a hand worse than yours, and most opponents won't do that. They call if you're ahead, and they raise if they have you whooped, at least if we don't have TPTK or better. I'm starting to check these more, evaluate the action, and typically call and reevaluate on the turn.

In the hand example you cite, I don't like the flop bet one bit. KK is NOT raising us very often, and he doesn't have AT often enough relative to the times he has AQ or AK.

McGahee

10-04-2005, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In the hand example you cite, I don't like the flop bet one bit. KK is NOT raising us very often, and he doesn't have AT often enough relative to the times he has AQ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that hand's WA/WB too often to bet the flop. Somebody mentioned a C/R, which is even worse...all you do is scare that AK/AQ into thinking you have a T, and he'll never fold, although KK might.

numeri

10-04-2005, 12:50 PM

A very manufactured and specific example:

Preflop:
Hero is MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG has 98s/o
UTG+1 has 77
Villain has AQs/o

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, Villain raises, 5 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, Villain raises

========================
Equity on the flop 4-handed:

Hand 1: 63.2698 % [ 00.63 00.00 ] { AQs, AQo }
Hand 2: 18.9926 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { JdTd }
Hand 3: 08.6941 % [ 00.08 00.01 ] { T9s, T9o }
Hand 4: 09.0434 % [ 00.09 00.00 ] { 77 }

========================
Equity if Villain raises and drives out UTG and UTG+1:

Hand 1: 74.5623 % [ 00.75 00.00 ] { AQs, AQo }
Hand 2: 25.4377 % [ 00.25 00.00 ] { JdTd }
========================

By raising, our equity increased from 19% to 25%, or an increase of ~32%.

MrWookie47

10-04-2005, 12:54 PM

We paid 1 SB for an increase in equity of 7% (absolute magnitude). That 7% increase in equity is smaller than 1 SB given the pot size. In a larger pot, this is fine. However, this is -EV.

numeri

10-04-2005, 12:56 PM

tiltaholic

10-04-2005, 01:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I used to think about betting into preflop raisers to protect my 2nd pair or whatever, but I don't think it's a good plan. You are hoping he raises a hand worse than yours, and most opponents won't do that. They call if you're ahead, and they raise if they have you whooped, at least if we don't have TPTK or better. I'm starting to check these more, evaluate the action, and typically call and reevaluate on the turn.

In the hand example you cite, I don't like the flop bet one bit. KK is NOT raising us very often, and he doesn't have AT often enough relative to the times he has AQ or AK.

[/ QUOTE ]

based on the original read of the villian (presumed maniac preflop) i think his hand range is large, so i'm more inclined to bet this flop.

against a tight player, i'm more inclined to check call the whole way.

MrWookie47

10-04-2005, 01:09 PM

Oh? I must have missed the original hand with the original read. Aaron didn't specify, so I assumed my default. If he's a maniac, yes, bet.

SlantNGo

10-04-2005, 01:19 PM

That wouldn't be the point of a C/R. I would C/R here if both call after PFR bets, for value. If both fold, then you go into WA/WB.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that hand's WA/WB too often to bet the flop. Somebody mentioned a C/R, which is even worse...all you do is scare that AK/AQ into thinking you have a T, and he'll never fold, although KK might.

[/ QUOTE ]

tiltaholic

10-04-2005, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh? I must have missed the original hand with the original read. Aaron didn't specify, so I assumed my default. If he's a maniac, yes, bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah i had to go back and look after i thought about it for a while.

lautzutao

10-04-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The action is taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3566334&page=1&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1). Most of the comments this hand received were focused on the lack of a preflop raise. I skimmed the posts and nobody talked about betting into the preflop raiser.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets...

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wow good example. Betting is okay here i would probably check and see what the action is back to me. Cosidering you bet i like a bet/call flop and bet the turn line assuming you loose the other two players or no one shows any strenght on the flop. Iguess the problem with checking here is pfr could bet and be raised by co with a hand we are ahead of and that puts you in a tough spot.

There is really no easy way to play this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

If we can't bet this flop, why are we calling PF raises with AJo? I don't think you can check this because PFR might not be raising with an Ace.

[ QUOTE ]
Alright, I'll bite. Not promising perfection though.

Here's an example of when I will check:

3 Limpers to me in MP2 w/ T /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif CO, a loose raiser in the late positions raises, rest fold.

Flop comes down J /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

We may be still behind here but there are a ton of outs on the Turn that improve us. Getting a free card doesn't hurt us all that much either for that reason.

I'm actually interested in what you have to say about this because I waffled between betting and checking when I made this up. Mostly because our T outs might be counterfeit sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

This hand I would check/call. This hand isn't bad but I'd like to see how some of our BD draws develop before I am willing to commit 2 bets to it. On the turn if we hit a card we like and everyone is still around I like a C/R here. If it happened to be heads up I bet it out.

Aaron W.

10-04-2005, 03:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh? I must have missed the original hand with the original read. Aaron didn't specify, so I assumed my default. If he's a maniac, yes, bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be hesitant to call "Taz" a maniac. Here's the read:

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is taz, but usually he just calls me down unless he has two pair or better, in which case he raises, but I don't have many hands on him.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not really maniacal...

MrWookie47

10-04-2005, 04:45 PM

No, that's not a maniac. The question then is, will he keep betting JJ UI? Will he call it down? However, I think I still return to my original sentiment in which I'm thinking WA/WB until things change.

tiltaholic

10-04-2005, 04:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No, that's not a maniac. The question then is, will he keep betting JJ UI? Will he call it down? However, I think I still return to my original sentiment in which I'm thinking WA/WB until things change.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh.

he doesn't need to be a true "maniac", whatever that is...

sorry i wasn't more precise (i should know better than to throw around the M-word)

i just meant to say that i thought his pf raising range would likely be larger than the average player's...leaning me towards a bet...and also, the observation that villian is likely to slow down to aggression made me feel that there would be a chance of a check through (though in typing that out it seems rather silly).

10-04-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We paid 1 SB for an increase in equity of 7% (absolute magnitude). That 7% increase in equity is smaller than 1 SB given the pot size. In a larger pot, this is fine. However, this is -EV.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the original hand, my bet was based mostly on the fold equity. The guy I bet into is a taz to me b/c he's unpredictable. I didn't really think I could count on him to raise behind me.

When I got raised, then things got complicated. That's when I realized I need work on my WA/WB strategy. I went ahead and peeled one off, but the turn was no help and he bet again, so I folded. I think this one is very read dependent, though. I may have given him way too much credit.

Aaron W.

10-06-2005, 01:42 PM

Taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3595854&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1).

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 raises, 3 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets...,

[/ QUOTE ]

MrWookie47

10-06-2005, 01:43 PM

As was said in that thread, betting out there is definitely a poor idea.

Aaron W.

10-06-2005, 01:46 PM

Taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3592846&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post3595276) and the action is modified to reflect some of the advice given.

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) HandConverter Link (http://www.urmomlol.com/handconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
Hero bets...

[/ QUOTE ]

tiltaholic

10-06-2005, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3592846&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post3595276) and the action is modified to reflect some of the advice given.

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) HandConverter Link (http://www.urmomlol.com/handconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
Hero bets...

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see the sense in betting this flop.

MrWookie47

10-06-2005, 01:52 PM

Neither do I. That's a pretty obvious check. And I'd consider raising preflop depending on the table and such.

LoaferGee12

11-10-2005, 07:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3595854&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1).

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
3 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 raises, 3 folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets...,

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

This needs a bump. I'm usually betting here but after reading posts here and actually thinking about it, the bet makes no sense. Check-call on the flop seems fine, but I'm not sure what to do what the rest of the hand. Any ideas?

Guruman

11-10-2005, 08:11 PM

it was bumpd, so I'll bite.

utg limps, hero limps utg + 1 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, mp raises, all fold to bb who calls, limpers call.

flop:

6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

bb checks, utg checks, hero bets hoping mp will raise. The plan is to check/call the rest of the way if other players fold and no A or K falls. In essence, manufacturing a WA/WB situation.

----------

and here's one from late position:

2 limpers, hero limps mp3 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif, co raises, all fold to limpers, all limpers call.

flop:

6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

checked to hero who bets hoping co will raise.

my thinking here: We want co to raise for a couple of reasons:

1)we may have the best hand if he raised with suited overcards, and we want to chase others out of the pot now.

2)our draw is potentially dominated by a limper holding a Jack. with just CO in the pot with us, we're less afraid of hitting the low end of our OESD and still not having the best hand.

the co will have to raise here with just about any reasonable holding. overcards will have to raise to chase out limpers who have drawing hands. If CO has big diamonds, he'll raise anyway to get a free card on the turn. big pairs autoraise here.

essentially, betting the flop here makes the turn and river play themselves. checking and calling vs 3 opponents is giving ourselves outs to lose a hand we may be leading.

Aaron W.

11-11-2005, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
it was bumpd, so I'll bite.

utg limps, hero limps utg + 1 with 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, mp raises, all fold to bb who calls, limpers call.

flop:

6/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif T/images/graemlins/spade.gif

bb checks, utg checks, hero bets hoping mp will raise. The plan is to check/call the rest of the way if other players fold and no A or K falls. In essence, manufacturing a WA/WB situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Do you think you have the best hand often enough with two overcards to your pair?
2) Do you think that villain bets the turn with overcards often enough that you're not worried about giving up a free card?

[ QUOTE ]
and here's one from late position:

2 limpers, hero limps mp3 with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif8/images/graemlins/club.gif, co raises, all fold to limpers, all limpers call.

flop:

6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

checked to hero who bets hoping co will raise.

my thinking here: We want co to raise for a couple of reasons:

1)we may have the best hand if he raised with suited overcards, and we want to chase others out of the pot now.

2)our draw is potentially dominated by a limper holding a Jack. with just CO in the pot with us, we're less afraid of hitting the low end of our OESD and still not having the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I don't know what you mean by "dominated" by a jack. If you hit the high card on your straight, he's drawing to a gutshot and probably isn't getting odds to do so.

2) I don't mind this bet as much.

Guruman

11-11-2005, 04:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

1) Do you think you have the best hand often enough with two overcards to your pair?
2) Do you think that villain bets the turn with overcards often enough that you're not worried about giving up a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

1)if mp raises here a naked six will probably have to fold, and any unpaired or unstraighted flush draw will also have to fold. A non-spade ten will occasionally fold. If I succeed in getting headsup, then I'm not nearly as worried about villain having a 6 or T. I worry about aces, kings, and spades.

2)semi-read dependant, but leading out can't stand a raise, and villain has raised both opportunities so far.

[ QUOTE ]
1) I don't know what you mean by "dominated" by a jack. If you hit the high card on your straight, he's drawing to a gutshot and probably isn't getting odds to do so.

2) I don't mind this bet as much.

[/ QUOTE ]

1)hmm, i guess I set that one up a little funny. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It looks like we're only really worried about JQ, and J7 in addition to the diamonds from the limpers. I still want the diamonds out of the pot though, and I don't want a naked ten to even pick up that draw on the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

2)thanks!

11-11-2005, 04:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I used to think about betting into preflop raisers to protect my 2nd pair or whatever, but I don't think it's a good plan. You are hoping he raises a hand worse than yours, and most opponents won't do that. They call if you're ahead, and they raise if they have you whooped, at least if we don't have TPTK or better. I'm starting to check these more, evaluate the action, and typically call and reevaluate on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can it not be worth it anyway? If you make somebody incorrectly fold 3 pair or a gutshot draw. Then when you make two pair+ you win the pot instead of losing to some other drawer. I am not saying we can do this vs every opponent but vs a guy who will raise with pretty much anything; not just TP+.

Aaron W.

11-11-2005, 05:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

1) Do you think you have the best hand often enough with two overcards to your pair?
2) Do you think that villain bets the turn with overcards often enough that you're not worried about giving up a free card?

[/ QUOTE ]

1)if mp raises here a naked six will probably have to fold, and any unpaired or unstraighted flush draw will also have to fold. A non-spade ten will occasionally fold. If I succeed in getting headsup, then I'm not nearly as worried about villain having a 6 or T. I worry about aces, kings, and spades.

2)semi-read dependant, but leading out can't stand a raise, and villain has raised both opportunities so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know where you get your optimism. Top pair is not folding for two bets on the flop. Two bets on the turn... maybe.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
1) I don't know what you mean by "dominated" by a jack. If you hit the high card on your straight, he's drawing to a gutshot and probably isn't getting odds to do so.

2) I don't mind this bet as much.

[/ QUOTE ]

1)hmm, i guess I set that one up a little funny. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It looks like we're only really worried about JQ, and J7 in addition to the diamonds from the limpers. I still want the diamonds out of the pot though, and I don't want a naked ten to even pick up that draw on the turn. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

2)thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

Again with the optimism... Dimaonds aren't leaving.

The reason the bet here is okay is because you have a decent amount of equity if you happen to get raised by a better hand. In the 55 example, you're royally screwed if you don't have the best hand.

Nick Moore

11-11-2005, 05:13 PM

I'm thinking that it's likely hero's beat here right now, and if there's a caller to the raiser's bet, we are drawing to maybe 2 outs. I think the hero can probably pick better spots to contest a pot. If it somehow checks around, a bet out on a non scary turn card is the only time to put more money in this pot. Otherwise, I'd usually check/fold this flop in my game.

Nick Moore

11-11-2005, 05:25 PM

If you check call, you let everyone else in cheaply, betting into a raise will bring it to 13.5/2, gutshots are no longer profitable, and we know we can draw to 2 pair or our backdoor flush, so why not protect our draw? Anyone decide to 3 bet, and we have even more info. I say bet.

11-11-2005, 05:54 PM

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In both your examples you have excellent relative position in regards to the PFR, ie he is on your immediate left. You can use this to your advantage in two ways if it is a passive table. You will almost always be acting last so the possibilities of a raise behind you are slim, therefore letting you see the Turn with marginal hands cheaply. You can also use him to knock players out if you so desire by betting into him hoping that he raises.
This is another excellent example why you want to have TAGs on your left.

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Another beautiful quote from Adsman.

In addition, I will bet into the PFR if my top pair is Q preferably J or lower.
It is much easier for the PFR to have just overcards and raise, clearing up outs for a vulnerable hand.

AJ on an ATT board. A9 on an A83 board. If you're ahead, the chances of being drawn out on are very slim. There's no reason to face the field with two cold. Let the PFR bet his or your hand, face the field with one and let them pad the pot.

99 on a K55 board. Why bet this? Check and see what happens.
The PFR will bet his hand on this board regardless, if he gets overcalls it will be hard to continue.

If the board was J55, the bet becomes a lot easier. The reason is that the PFR is MUCH more likely to have and raise just overcards. And if your hand is good, it is very easily drawn out on. Facing the field with 2 cold, clears up a lot of outs.

Shillx

11-11-2005, 08:01 PM

The only time it is correct to bet into a PFR when he is directly on your left is when you think he will raise with a worse hand (or fold a better hand). So in the A9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif example...if you think he will raise KQ or KK, you should bet into him. If he will only raise something better, it is dumb to bet into him unless you can use that information to get away from the hand. The problem is that the pot will oftentimes become so big that you will have odds to see it through. In the A9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif hand, you could bet and then fold the turn if he raises and you don't improve (you don't have any BD draws). But hen you have lots of backdoor draws, the turn will sometimes give you something worth seeing a river with, and then you get compelled to call there since the pot is now > 10 BB.

So I don't really mind a bet here if he will only raise a better ace (likewise I don't mind a bet if he will raise KK and QQ everytime). But if he raises all better hands and worse hands only a small % of the time, it gets very tough to play against him since you are sometimes folding the winner if you decide to ditch it on 4th. So if you are unsure, it is best to just check and call and find a way to showdown.

Brad

Edited to say that it is correct to bet if he will fold a better hand. In the A9s hand, no better hand will fold so that isn't really a concern. In the 99 hand it is something to think about though.

Shillx

11-11-2005, 08:03 PM

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Taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3592846&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post3595276) and the action is modified to reflect some of the advice given.

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Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) HandConverter Link (http://www.urmomlol.com/handconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
Hero bets...

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i don't see the sense in betting this flop.

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Wrong. This bet is FAR more correct then betting the flop in that A9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif hand. If we intend to put a bet in here (which seems like a good idea since it will be ~ 17 SB when it comes back to us) we should lead out at this flop. There are just too many better hands that we want to go away.

Brad

Aaron W.

11-11-2005, 08:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Taken from this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=3592846&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1#Post3595276) and the action is modified to reflect some of the advice given.

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) HandConverter Link (http://www.urmomlol.com/handconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Hero completes, BB raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
Hero bets...

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i don't see the sense in betting this flop.

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Wrong. This bet is FAR more correct then betting the flop in that A9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif hand. If we intend to put a bet in here (which seems like a good idea since it will be ~ 17 SB when it comes back to us) we should lead out at this flop. There are just too many better hands that we want to go away.

Brad

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What better hands will go away?

Also, the "if you're going to call a bet, you should bet it yourself" mantra applies when you're talking about *ONE* bet. Here, you're talking about putting in two bets with potentially the worst hand if villain raises you.

11-11-2005, 08:13 PM

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What better hands will go away?

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In any one of the three hands posted?

Shillx

11-11-2005, 08:18 PM

QQ-99 might fold. Ax might fold. Eventhough Ax is behind right now, that is a hand that we would rather him fold then call with (or bet). When he raises, our hand is very easy to play since he has a king or better just about everytime.

If you check and call here, what is the plan for the rest of the hand? We are roughly a 2:1 underdog against his range, so we can't throw the hand away if he will bet all of his holdings. If you check and call the flop, you pretty much have to showdown if the limpers don't show any interest.

Brad

Aaron W.

11-11-2005, 08:19 PM

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What better hands will go away?

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In any one of the three hands posted?

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I'm looking at the hand that was quoted.

11-11-2005, 08:31 PM

Aaron W.

11-11-2005, 08:51 PM

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QQ-99 might fold. Ax might fold. Eventhough Ax is behind right now, that is a hand that we would rather him fold then call with (or bet). When he raises, our hand is very easy to play since he has a king or better just about everytime.

If you check and call here, what is the plan for the rest of the hand? We are roughly a 2:1 underdog against his range, so we can't throw the hand away if he will bet all of his holdings. If you check and call the flop, you pretty much have to showdown if the limpers don't show any interest.

Brad

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You might be a little bit optimistic with QQ-99 folding to a flop donk. More importantly, you're not taking the remaining FOUR players in the pot into consideration.

The plan is to check and see what happens. If there are lots of limpers calling along, see the turn (since you have odds and you're closing the action), and be ready to check and fold if you don't improve. If it's heads up, I like check-raising the flop and leading the turn. If there are two villains, use your reads and play poker.

If it's bet and raised, it's an easy muck.