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View Full Version : KK, Ace flops and meets river donk

10-03-2005, 07:04 PM
It's a pretty small pot and I don't think I beat anything, can I fold?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (6.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero can't beat anything.
Nick C
10-03-2005, 07:07 PM
I would probably call.

BB could have a worse pocket pair, a five, a ten (with a hand like T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif), or even a busted draw. I'd be expecting to lose, though.
W. Deranged
10-03-2005, 07:08 PM
I need a read...


Here's the thing about this line from villain (check-call/check-call/bet...):

1. It is the correct "expert" way to play a potentially "way behind" pair of aces, such as AJs, which would merit a call from the big blind.

2. It is one of many donkish lines that I've seen poor players take with missed flush draws and other junk.


So my reaction to this bet depends pretty heavily on what I think of my opponent.

Against an unknown, this line is weird enough to encourage a call out of me (it is just not obviously enough an A or a 7 for me to fold).

Against a TAG I find a fold here.
alul
10-03-2005, 07:39 PM
I don't thing a TAG would play an ace like this. I call this bet from anybody but calling station.
JacksonTens
10-03-2005, 07:44 PM
We definately need an evaluation of the villain. Perhaps he puts you on an AK second barrel? That was my first thought. Perhaps he caught a T on the river and thinks you won't bet again for him, maybe he's slowplaying two pair? I'm calling if your anything but knowledge.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif
W. Deranged
10-03-2005, 07:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't thing a TAG would play an ace like this. I call this bet from anybody but calling station.

[/ QUOTE ]

Question: You hold AJs in the BB here, and you call the raise and take the flop. How are you playing this hand?

In my opinion, the correct answer is: the way BB played his hand.

This is standard 2+2 fare: WA/WB with a not-very-vulnerable top pair hand against a pre-flop raiser who may have us beat but who we don't want to fold a hand like, say, KK.
ncboiler
10-03-2005, 07:52 PM
[ QUOTE ]


1. It is the correct "expert" way to play a potentially "way behind" pair of aces, such as AJs, which would merit a call from the big blind.



[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you play a way behind pair of aces this way? Bet the river and fold to a reraise? Bet the river with the chance yuo're ahead and hope for a call? Or am I missing sarcasm?
W. Deranged
10-03-2005, 07:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


1. It is the correct "expert" way to play a potentially "way behind" pair of aces, such as AJs, which would merit a call from the big blind.



[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you play a way behind pair of aces this way? Bet the river and fold to a reraise? Bet the river with the chance yuo're ahead and hope for a call? Or am I missing sarcasm?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm being serious. Hands like AJ and AT are either way ahead or way behind here. We don't want to get too aggressive early and make it easy for a hand like JJ to fold. We also don't want to fold. So we check-call the first two streets and then value-bet the river. If we get raised on the river, we are almost certainly beat. By taking this line, though, we confuse our opponents and often induce a river call.

The basic point is that with a hand like AJ here we're very unlikely to get more than one bet on each street when we're ahead, and will often have to pay more than that when behind. (Note I'm pretty much talking about playing against standard opponents with decent raising/playing standards). So we take a line that is likely to get that number of bets in, no more, no less.
10-03-2005, 08:20 PM
Villain was 60/7/0.43, but only over 60 hands. Given this player's aggression, and the fact I hadn't seen him bet a single time yet I decided that he most certainly had me beat with either a 7, an Ace or the unlikely TT, I had some misgivings about the fold immediately after, but thinking back on it, I think I like it again.
Delzek15
10-03-2005, 08:28 PM
You beat a busted flush draw. I call.
hobbsmann
10-03-2005, 09:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 60/7/0.43, but only over 60 hands. Given this player's aggression, and the fact I hadn't seen him bet a single time yet I decided that he most certainly had me beat with either a 7, an Ace or the unlikely TT, I had some misgivings about the fold immediately after, but thinking back on it, I think I like it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against the guy and those stats I call everytime. You are going to see so much weird crap from guys like this who periodically bluff in bad spots. FWIW, I agree with what W. has written above and could find a fold against an abc TAG, but would probably call against most others.
oxymoron
10-03-2005, 09:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 60/7/0.43, but only over 60 hands. Given this player's aggression, and the fact I hadn't seen him bet a single time yet I decided that he most certainly had me beat with either a 7, an Ace or the unlikely TT, I had some misgivings about the fold immediately after, but thinking back on it, I think I like it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

With those stats I think you played it fine. Unless he has seen you fold a few times to a checkraise but even that seems to be too tricky for this player.
Go Blue
10-03-2005, 09:59 PM
Is it wrong to check the turn here? Isn't this a typical WA/WB situation? Since the board is paired, it makes it ev en betterfor this play. (Now you're not worried about giving someone a free card to make 2 pair.) A flush draw will call you anyway. If he has nothing or catches a pair on the river, you will probably have induced a bluff. Anything wrong with this line? /images/graemlins/spade.gif
W. Deranged
10-03-2005, 10:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Is it wrong to check the turn here? Isn't this a typical WA/WB situation? Since the board is paired, it makes it ev en betterfor this play. (Now you're not worried about giving someone a free card to make 2 pair.) A flush draw will call you anyway. If he has nothing or catches a pair on the river, you will probably have induced a bluff. Anything wrong with this line? /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with checking the turn is that you miss a bet from a drawing hand and give him a chance to make it for free.
pyroponic
10-04-2005, 12:06 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it wrong to check the turn here? Isn't this a typical WA/WB situation? Since the board is paired, it makes it ev en betterfor this play. (Now you're not worried about giving someone a free card to make 2 pair.) A flush draw will call you anyway. If he has nothing or catches a pair on the river, you will probably have induced a bluff. Anything wrong with this line? /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with checking the turn is that you miss a bet from a drawing hand and give him a chance to make it for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's probably more problems with betting this turn than checking this turn, therefore it is probably best to check the turn and play the river optimally.
silkyslim
10-04-2005, 12:16 AM
call. he could have a lot of things u beat. 7, A are the only cards. he could have a pocket pair, 5, T, busted draw, or nothing.
DrewOnTilt
10-04-2005, 12:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Villain was 60/7/0.43, but only over 60 hands. Given this player's aggression, and the fact I hadn't seen him bet a single time yet I decided that he most certainly had me beat with either a 7, an Ace or the unlikely TT, I had some misgivings about the fold immediately after, but thinking back on it, I think I like it again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having seen weird donkbets with all manner of hands from Party 2/4 players, I don't like the fold. You will sometimes be beat but you should show a profit often enough to justify a call. You only have to be good 1 time in 7. I call against most loose Party 2/4 dolts.