Q/10 Blind Steal Gone Wrong

[Delzek15]

I'm so lost when this happens... Please let me know what you do.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls.

Flop: (5.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.66 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 4.66 BB

[kross]

How can this be a blind steal when MP3 already open-limped?

As for the flop, I just fold.

I like the PF raise, depending on reads of the open limper. I would fold the flop.

[oxymoron]

[ QUOTE ]
How can this be a blind steal when MP3 already open-limped?

As for the flop, I just fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I'm not raising QTo with a limper. Now I might raise a PP from that position depending upon how the table is.

[peterchi]

There's not really anything wrong with just folding this flop.

By the way, what's your read on MP3? Isolating him with QTo isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I'd like him to either be weak-tight (you'll often take it down on the flop) or loose-passive (you often have the best hand pre-flop). If he has any sort of aggressiveness in him, that makes this tougher to play, since, after all, your hand is Queen-high before the flop.

Since he did open-limp from MP3, I'm gonna guess that he falls into one of the desired categories, but I figured I'd ask anyways.

[kross]

Actually, I like the PF isolation raise. Usually, they will check to you, you auto-bet, and a very significant portion of the time, they fold. Seems +EV to me.

Okay, so maybe this is kind of a blind steal + idiot donkey open limping lunch money steal.

[Fnord]

I usually just fold. Sometimes I raise it up, it really depends on what I think of the other player.

If he does this a lot, I would start to consider just calling pre-flop in this spot.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I like the PF isolation raise. Usually, they will check to you, you auto-bet, and a very significant portion of the time, they fold. Seems +EV to me.

Okay, so maybe this is kind of a blind steal + idiot donkey open limping lunch money steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are guilty of two very dangerous mistakes here:

1. Thinking that QTo plays well against... um... any hand heads-up.

2. Trying to make power plays against weak players with hands that have no showdown value.

This is a decent hand to steal the blinds with, but even a donkey who plays a very high percentage of hands will often be open limping with hands that have you in terrible shape (remember that the "average" hand is Q7o). And if he really is the kind of donkey you want to isolate against, he often will not be folding easily (many players automatically go to the turn before considering folding).

[peterchi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I like the PF isolation raise. Usually, they will check to you, you auto-bet, and a very significant portion of the time, they fold. Seems +EV to me.

Okay, so maybe this is kind of a blind steal + idiot donkey open limping lunch money steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are guilty of two very dangerous mistakes here:

1. Thinking that QTo plays well against... um... any hand heads-up.

2. Trying to make power plays against weak players with hands that have no showdown value.

This is a decent hand to steal the blinds with, but even a donkey who plays a very high percentage of hands will often be open limping with hands that have you in terrible shape (remember that the "average" hand is Q7o). And if he really is the kind of donkey you want to isolate against, he often will not be folding easily (many players automatically go to the turn before considering folding).

[/ QUOTE ]
But Will, lunch money is so yummy... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

And maybe this is a bad habit coming from my NL days (when I could put in a reasonable flop bet and then stack someone on the turn with any two cards), but I actually really enjoy taking it down on the turn as opposed to the flop /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

ok I'm done being useless.

[Delzek15]

Sooo I'm getting mixed reviews on the PF raise... The limper was actually a normal 25/3 loose player. I'm guessing those who thought that raising was a bad idea suggest I just fold in this situation?

BTW He showed 10/6 (pure bluff). Also in retrospect I realize i shouldn't have called the flop bet it should have either been a raise or fold.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I like the PF isolation raise. Usually, they will check to you, you auto-bet, and a very significant portion of the time, they fold. Seems +EV to me.

Okay, so maybe this is kind of a blind steal + idiot donkey open limping lunch money steal.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are guilty of two very dangerous mistakes here:

1. Thinking that QTo plays well against... um... any hand heads-up.

2. Trying to make power plays against weak players with hands that have no showdown value.

This is a decent hand to steal the blinds with, but even a donkey who plays a very high percentage of hands will often be open limping with hands that have you in terrible shape (remember that the "average" hand is Q7o). And if he really is the kind of donkey you want to isolate against, he often will not be folding easily (many players automatically go to the turn before considering folding).

[/ QUOTE ]
But Will, lunch money is so yummy... /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

And maybe this is a bad habit coming from my NL days (when I could put in a reasonable flop bet and then stack someone on the turn with any two cards), but I actually really enjoy taking it down on the turn as opposed to the flop /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

ok I'm done being useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

The no limit comment is quite astute; in no limit, where it is easier to encourage folds, this kind of approach can be useful. You can set up opponents to put in a lot of money before forcing a fold.

In limit, on the other hand, it's harder to encourage folds, and hence all the money you put in on early streets is more expensive, in some sense, because it's going to be harder to get back.

That's why the hands that work best for this kind of moves are hands that play well heads-up and particularly have some kind of showdown value, like A high hands and pairs.

[W. Deranged]

I don't like the pre-flop raise.

I think the flop should probably be a fold, though a raise is better than a call as it buys fold equity... unless you are planning to execute a Shant-esque float, that is.

[kross]

Those are good points.

I'm going by SSH, which says something to the tune of "in LP, if the pot is still short handed, raise with offsuit broadway hands to fold the blinds". I don't have my book here at work, so it probably had more qualifications, like "if the limpers are loose and really bad".

So, if we follow that advice, and the limper checks to us, on that board, should we check behind? Or throw a bet out there? I think a bet is mandatory, with 5.5 SB in the pot, our bluff only needs to work 1 in 5 times. (HPFAP, shorthanded play)

Of course, I don't have as much experience as you, I'm still trying to learn when to try these isolation raises, and how to play them postflop.

-- Kevin

[W. Deranged]

I certainly think betting the flop is correct in such situations.

My point is that I don't think QTo is a good enough hand to do this with.

Hands I would do it with would include hands like A9o, KTo, A5s, and 66. The point is that I want hands that play better heads-up and have better showdown value. The "offsuit broadways" idea in SSH I tend to think points more toward the A- and K-high hands and less to QT and JT, which really are pretty weak and not good isolation hands.

[kross]

Excellent, thanks!

[hobbsmann]

[ QUOTE ]
Sooo I'm getting mixed reviews on the PF raise... The limper was actually a normal 25/3 loose player. I'm guessing those who thought that raising was a bad idea suggest I just fold in this situation?

BTW He showed 10/6 (pure bluff). Also in retrospect I realize i shouldn't have called the flop bet it should have either been a raise or fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually don't think this isolation is a bad play against a worse player (say VPIP &gt; 40), but given the stats you provided (especially since he has such a low pfr) you are going to be a dog to this guys range. Against more of a LAG a limp in a situation is going to tell you lot more, namely he is probably holding complete garbage, and an isolation raise with weak broadway cards should be profitable.

As this hand played out I would just fold the flop.

[Fnord]

I raise here a lot.

Consider:
o Raising here provokes the tigher player I've giving less action to, into giving me more action.
o You have a lot of bluff equity on Axx, Kxx, etc. boards.
o The dead blind money gives you room to fold to a bluff like this sometimes.

You just need to consider who you're picking on and who's in the blinds. The more information I have the more inclined I am to make this play. If he's going to play back or see lots of rivers, then you want the unimproved showdown power.