What Is The Correct Ruling On This One -and A Story To .....

....get it out of my system.

My usual 5-10 game. The player on my immediate right became quite cocky after winning a monster pot by bad beating another player with a nut FH with his runner-runner quads. He started raising with cheesy hands, without looking at his card, gabbing with the dealers in Vietnamese, tipping the dealer with red chips when he sucked out on opponents, etc. Then this hand came up:

Four handed on the flop (cards don't matter) - BB, UTG, cocky player (CP), and CO. BB and UTG checked, CP slid a red chip without saying anything, CO, BB and UTG all called. Dealer was about to take off the burn card for the turn when CP said, "Wait, I have not called yet, that chip is the dealer's tip". At that time, I questioned the action, the game stopped and a floorperson was called, Eric. After a brief explanation by the dealer and me, Eric ruled that because CP did not say anything, the first chip was a legit call. The hand was played to conclusion and the outcome was inconsequential. But I thought it was wrong and made a comment as such. The bad part was CP became hot, stared at me and said, "You're not even in the f***g hand". I lost my cool and yelled back with my own four-letter word because, as friendly and pleasant as I am, I NEVER tolerate any abuse especially if it is directed to me, knowing I have every right to question a decision as a player in the game. The argument became heated and both of us were given a 30 minute time off. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

I returned and got involved in a hand with this jerk when he raised, and I isolated him by re-raising with AK.

Flop was A T J rainbow. Jerk checked, I bet, he raised, I re-raised, he called. Turn was Q, check, bet, call. River was a K. He bet, I raise, he re-raise, I 4-bet, he called. We chopped and the SOB called me an idiot!! /forums/images/icons/mad.gif /forums/images/icons/mad.gif I felt steam coming out of my ears, called him a f***g idiot-gook and the thought of becoming physical crossed my mind. But my better judgment prevailed, regained my composure and asked for a table transfer to one which unfortunately was tighter than a clam's ass. It was too bad that I had to give up a good game with the best seat in the house.

OTOH, it was overall for the better as it could have affected my game plus the fact that I don't want to be thrown out. /forums/images/icons/frown.gif /forums/images/icons/mad.gif

[snakehead]

1. the ruling was correct.

2. you are an ignorant racist scumbag.

Snakehead,

I take offense in what you said because I am not only a minority but an Asian too and far away to be a racist and ignorant at that. The way I questioned the ruling was in a pleasant, professional manner. The guy was totally out of line but nobody, ABSOLUTELY NOBODY would verbally abuse me and get away with it. If somebody does, I'll get back at him in the best possible way to get under his skin and if he tries to be physical then I have the legit reason to ???

I have a good reputation of being a friendly, jovial, and sociable player who would be the first to defend a dealer from abusive players and most of the regulars and dealers in the house know that. But nobody steps on my toes and get away with it except maybe a yellow dog who can would do it anonymously in a forum like this.

[oddjob]

are you vietnamese? if not then what you said is a racist remark. you said it in a derogative manner and it was aimed at his nationality.

i am korean and other koreans i know are racist towards other asians. it is racism and it's sad that you as an asian would use it to insult someone.

[andyfox]

". I lost my cool and yelled back with my own four-letter word because, as friendly and pleasant as I am . . . The argument became heated and both of us were given a 30 minute time off. . . I felt steam coming out of my ears, called him a f***g idiot-gook and the thought of becoming physical crossed my mind."

You must have a different definition of friendly and pleasant than I do. Friendly and pleasant people do not insult other people with profanity and racial insults; nor do they want to hit someone when there is a disagreement.

"He started raising with cheesy hands, without looking at his card"

I hate it when they do that. The cocky bastard.

Andy,

I am friendly and pleasant, but I did not say I don't have a short fuse - when stepped on. You treat me with kindness and respect and you'll get back much more in return, but cross me the wrong way and it will a totally different story. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[DaBartman]

I am not Asian and I play green chip games in the Los Angeles area. Never have I lost it at the table because of a similar situation (I have suffered many!). The interior of my car, my roomate and the destruction of my tidy garage know the truth. Those three things and integrity allow me to sleep well. Have you ever seen Homer squeeze Bart's neck so it appears his head will pop? If only, if only.

[RockLobster]

Hey ID4--

I think everyone agrees that the ruling is correct. I think this has to do with "too much action" having taken place, so it's too late to roll back.

Your reactions seemed pretty reasonable until the point where you called him a gook. I like the idea of not letting people abuse you, but you've got to control yourself better than that. He called you an idiot... that's not a good enough reason to drop the REAL hateful bombs.

If I can leave you with some advice... don't let others determine your mood so easily. Have fun at the table, enjoy the company of the 7 or 8 friendly people, and treat the 1 jerk like crap if he deserves it... but don't let him change your entire outlook so easily. You're giving away way too much power.

[tewall]

Sounds like you're taking things too personally. If the guy was a bad player, you should have just blown off what he said and patiently waited for a chance to get the money in with the best of it. If you can keep a cool head, you're much more likely to make good decisions.

[Emperor]

"ABSOLUTELY NOBODY would verbally abuse me and get away with it."

So you're saying putting you on tilt is easy as pie eh?

Grow up. My 5 year old can diffuse a situation better than this. Escalation leads to one thing, proving how st00pid you are. You proved it.

You need to relax...Be an adult...When someone insults you, just say, "I'm sorry you feel that way", and ignore them. You instantly turn the aggressor into the bad guy and you look 10x more intelligent than if you retaliate.

Too Late. Idon't understand why you are advertising your ignorance and immaturity on this forum either. Mind Boggling.

If you don't like this post..."I'm sorry you feel that way" /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

[rharless]

I felt steam coming out of my ears, called him a f***g idiot-**** and the thought of becoming physical crossed my mind. But my better judgment prevailed...

Perhaps next time you should let your better judgment prevail a little earlier in the exchange.

The floor was entirely correct in giving you both a 30 minute time out. In fact, I am surprised both of you got off so lightly. I know people who have been 86'ed for two weeks for less than this.

Sorry, but you really sound like an a-hole in this story. Your other posts don't sound like this, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are a nice guy but with a short fuse. That excuse still comes up (very) short, though.

[SoBeDude]

I've read all the posts and I'd just like to add this.

Being one of Italian descent and proudly coming from a long line of men with temper, I'd like to say this.

I've never been that unglued at a table. But I'd bet if I play long enough I will.

I'm also the most color-blind person I know (when it comes to race, etc.). That doesn't mean I've never let a racial slur slip past my lips.

We weren't there and can't understand how abrasive this guy might have been. Its not one act that sets a person off, its a large number of them in a short period of time.

We all have a breaking point, and ID4 reached his. It happens.

I hope you get him next time.

-Scott

[bernie]

i enjoyed it up to the racial slur. cant you do any better than that? geez

and no, his action shouldve been a bet. he made no mention of tipping the dealer. i think this was a bad decision by the floor.

b

[rharless]

bernie, the way I read the original post, the floor ruled that the chip stands as a $5 call (bet), and not as a dealer tip

[bernie]

my contention is that he was the original bettor on the flop. the other players were calling his 'bet'. how do you think this would fly if all of a sudden he decided to raise? after the ruling, he certainly had that option, right? gaurantee more than just Id4 wouldve gone ballistic at that one.

but since he only 'called' it doesnt make much difference. but i think it should have been ruled that he bet, therefore he would not be able to raise. see what im getting at?

that's why i think it was a bad ruling. however, the ruling didnt affect anything since he only called.

b

[rharless]

Sorry bernie, I am only seeing the trees but the forest escapes me. The floor ruled that he called preflop as I read the original post. I don't see that they would have given him the option to raise?

Not the first time I am misunderstanding something on 2+2 though /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif

[RockLobster]

[Ralle]

Clearly, CP made a bet. If you put in a chip the size of the bet, or bigger, when it's your turn to act, and don't say anything, it cannot be considered anything but a bet. If you have a betting line it would be considered a bet in the same situation if the chip passes the line.

[Ralle]

Of course, had there been action before you, your action as described would constitute a call. (But this was not the case here).

It is embarrassing how my flare up was misconstrued of me as being a rascist by some which cannot be further from the truth. I am an Asian with an African-American son-in-law and a proud grandpa to three beautiful kids. I take pride that I helped raised my late son's Vietnamese friend, an orphan living with his elderly grandparents and is now a successful businessman.

Let's face it that there is a tinge of prejudice in the vast majority of us. But because of certain fears of alienating others by making a politically incorrect statements or decisions, most hide behind the cloak of hipocrisy. I don't. My character of being too frank and honest at times have cost me dearly in my professional career in the past (no, not by making racial statements) of which I have no regrets.

This past incident was preceded by verbal tirades directed to me calling me sarcastically an old man, a senior citizen, implying I am incapable of defending myself, culminated by calling me an idiot. At that instant, I couldn't care less whether he was black, yellow or blue or said something to REEAAAALLLLY get under his skin and my reply was directed solely to him as a person and not to his nationality.

I hope that the Vietnamese players out there, some of whom may know me, will understand my position. Thanks again for the responses. Some of your points are well-taken.

NEXT DEAL!! /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Nottom]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
At that instant, I couldn't care less whether he was black, yellow or blue or said something to REEAAAALLLLY get under his skin and my reply was directed solely to him as a person and not to his nationality.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was about to post a similar thought to this before I read this post. There is a big line between using a racial slur and being a racist. I certainly don't advocate the use of such terms, but in a similar situation I might be tempted if I knew I could really get under someones skin.

I find it a bit ironic that in our society we have no problem with calling someone a motherf***er or calling a woman a b*tch or even c*nt but as soon as you get race involved it becomes a big deal. Hate is hate, words are just words. Now can't we all just get along.

[bernie]

i went back and reread it. a couple times. the floor ruled it a call, evidently not giving him the option of raising. although the raise subject never came up. im still wondering how it would have been ruled had the player wanted to raise, saying that the initial chip was for the dealer, meaning that it wasnt part of his action.

but upon further review, and the poster knows better than me how the ruling was applied, it seems the floor wasnt going to let him raise if he wanted to. but the fact is, everyone behind him acted on his precieved bet. which is why i had a problem with his action being named a 'call'. but, again, it's a moot point since it didnt affect anything since he only 'called' anyway.

how can you call your own bet? is what i was getting at.

b

[bernie]

"I find it a bit ironic that in our society we have no problem with calling someone a motherf***er or calling a woman a b*tch or even c*nt but as soon as you get race involved it becomes a big deal. "

a person can help whether they are one of these. but they cant do anything about what race they are. i think it's kind of ignorant to think using a racial slur shouldnt stir up anything. especially the way the world is today. and just because you are that race doesnt make it any more justified when used with malice. sure, it is directed at one person, but if one is stupid enough not to think that kind of word will not affect anyone else within earshot, they dont know just how much power those words hold. they cast a wide net. especially when yelled.

hey, here's an idea. go to harlem, and yell nigger a couple times at no one in particular. then try to explain to the masses surrounding you that you just wanted to get it out of your system and it wasnt aimed at anyone. after all, it's 'just' a word and they should be over it. THEN go back a month later and yell 'motherf*cker'. see which word gets you more 'action'.

i think one will be much easier to explain your way out of a stay in the hospital.

b

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Hold on a second. Here's what the original poster wrote:

"I lost my cool and yelled back with my own four-letter word"

Why is everybody assuming the four letter word was a racial slur? How do we know he didn't call him a "see you next tuesday"? And besides, Vietnamese is *not* a race, it's a nationality.

I'm not defending his blow-up, but it seems to me a lot of people made a quantum leap to call this guy a racist.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Bernie, I'll bet you that if you went to Harlem, and called the first brother you met an *MF* you'd get just as much action as you would by calling him a *N*

[Nottom]

So you think women can avoid being a b*tch? Any time a woman does anything to piss a guy off, shes just a bitch. Have you listened to any rap music in the last 15 years? I just find it ironic that slurring women is ok, but saying n*gger makes you a racist.

I certainly don't approve of racial slurs and I try not to use any of them, but as an observer if I saw a guy in a fight with a black guy who happened to toss out an n-bomb, I would't think nearly as bad of him as some guy talking to his buddies at the water cooler talking about "that stupid n*gger" who happens to live next door. The first guy very well might be trying to piss the guy off and knows that word will do the trick and gain him an edge, in the second case he's just an ignorant racist.

[rharless]

Four letter word is not the racial slur that people are discussing.

Dictionary reference for the "bad word" in the original post (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gook)

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I missed it the first 5 times I read the post. I hope I read flops better than that /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif

[bernie]

maybe already said. but read farther in the post. last i looked, 'gook' was a racial slur.

b

[bernie]

i didnt say to call it to anyone in particular. just yell it. over and over. one word they may think you have a problem. the other word you will have a problem

b