Kind of General Question

[SmileyEH]

Playing against a decent tag at 5/10. I raise JJ in EP he 3bets in MP I cap HU. Flop is Q high I bet he calls, turn is a brick making it two tone. Villian raises my bet - I know he is capable of bluffing here and I'm not sure if he will follow through on the river - thoughts on 3 betting for a free showdown OOP?

-SmileyEH

[2planka]

Without more info, I think this play works about 0% of the time to get you a check through on the end. The times you're beat call/check/call costs you the same amount. The times you're good it nets you the same.

[W. Deranged]

In general, I think aggressive plays intended to get opponents (particularly aggressive ones) to check behind on the following streets when you are out of position are retarded.

If we are check-raising here, it is for protection and value; any pursuant check on the river would be probably with the intent of check-folding or occassionally to induce a bluff, not specifically to get villain to check behind a better hand. The real value in a three bet here is to encourage villain to fold something like AK that may have outs against us. Needless to say I hate it. Call the turn bet and hope villain bluffs the river again. Unless villain has exactly AK I'm not to worried about him seeing the river. Often he'll have something like TT which I'd rather he continue to bet.

So, yeah, I hate the turn play.

I'm also interested in the flop cap. We're certainly not well ahead of the range of a tag three-betting out of middle position, and out-of-position capping pre-flop makes the hand tougher to play later. Do others have thoughts on the pre-flop line?

[2planka]

Capping JJ pf in a 5/10 game is fine, IMO, provided we can get away from it if overcards flop and our opponents pass the test.

PF 3 bets are common with big and big suited aces at 5/10 (in addition to AA-TT). So I think we're flipping coins preflop most of the time here against a "TAG" opponent.

edit: in the case of OP's hand, I think his 3 bet on the turn would get capped a lot of the time here, too.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Capping JJ pf in a 5/10 game is fine, IMO, provided we can get away from it if overcards flop and our opponents pass the test.

PF 3 bets are common with big and big suited aces at 5/10 (in addition to AA-TT). So I think we're flipping coins preflop most of the time here against a "TAG" opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that we are very rarely ahead of the three-betting range of a TAG raiser here, and, as I've said, I think the hand is harder to play if we capped.

I will often cap JJ and TT (and AKo... I'm always capping AA-QQ and AKs) in pots with fishy opponents where I'm pretty confident I have an equity edge and there are opponents playing inferior hands. Against a lone TAG, capping here does not seem right.

[2planka]

[ QUOTE ]
Against a lone TAG, capping here does not seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you're saying, and it makes even more sense when the TAG waits for the turn to raise. A turn three bet here is gonna get capped way more often than it gets us a free showdown.

[toss]

One thing about not capping PF is that we can go c/c/c or c/c/b postflop.

[krimson]

OOP free showdown? It costs the same # of bets when it works as just calling down, and is costing us as much as 3 extra bets when it goes awry. I also don't think we have much fold equity here, what hands are we beat by that is going to fold on this board?

edit: If you think he's capable of bluffing then how about a stop'n'go? It reduces the polarity of how many bets we're putting in when ahead and behind. If he has AK (u/i) he almost has to make a crying call on the river for 1 more bet, and we can avoid a cap and river bet if we're behind a monster like QQ.

[jason_t]

Don't cap preflop and check/call unless the board gets heavy.

[W. Deranged]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't cap preflop and check/call unless the board gets heavy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sweet...

[SmileyEH]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't cap preflop and check/call unless the board gets heavy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against this opponent a cap by itself is probably neutral EV, his 3betting range is probably 99-AA plus AQ, AK, maybe AJ and maybe 5% some other hand. I like to cap a wider range of hands so it's harder to read me. FWIW I play probaby a hundred hands against this opponent in any given day (he's from russia I'm in europe so we're hitting the tables around the same sparse time). Capping JJ OOP against him is worth it IMO.

-SmileyEH

[tongni]

I wouldn't do it here because you raised in EP, he has to give you credit for some sort of hand. I would lean towards calling the turn and folding the river UI. If his range of hands includes 88, 99, and TT, I might, but I'd have had to played with him for a while.

[SmileyEH]

I called the turn, checked the river - he thought for about 20 seconds and bet, I called and he showed AK.

-SmileyEH