$55: Interesting trend I've noticed recently

[MegaBet]

Early in the game, people calling prefop raises with mid-pairs and calling a flop bluff-push with 2-3 overcards on the board.

I asked why they called with 4th pair, and their reply was "you bet too much". This happened to me in 3 of my games last night (all in the same set), and happened quite a few time to other players. I had not played these players before, so they can't have had a read on me.

Has anyone else noticed this? Maybe this can be turned around and pushing monsters early become the best way to extract maximun value? I'm just thinking out loud.

[JJKillian]

I noticed this when I first started to adapt to the 55's a few months back. I overbet with higher hands just for that reason at this lvl in the 55's. It seems to work well in the 100's as well.

JJ

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I had not played these players before,

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a reason for that.

[jeffraider]

Why are you bluffpushing early in the game?

[KingDan]

I've been value-pushing quite a bit early and seen some ridiculous calls.

[Lucid1]

I'm the guy who made a couple of those ridiculous calls /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'm new in the 55s, and have made a couple of calls from pushers who I mistakenly was hoping were just overagressive and making silly bluffs.

Some dude went all-in with the nuts on the flop against me in a mini-pot, and I called with top pair, medium kicker and felt pretty stupid /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[JJKillian]

shorty after I responded to this post I had this come up.

#Game No : 2818631494
***** Hand History for Game 2818631494 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:16294753 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Monday, October 03, 15:31:08 EDT 2005
Table Table 11776 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: thenigel ( $985 )
Seat 2: JJD925 ( $1035 )
Seat 3: Stewe81 ( $725 )
Seat 4: RipUinDaEye ( $985 )
Seat 5: deagan20 ( $1420 )
Seat 6: kobi50111 ( $1000 )
Seat 7: gsassin01 ( $1000 )
Seat 8: ratisse ( $990 )
Seat 9: TaylormadeTM ( $985 )
Seat 10: JJKillian ( $875 )
Trny:16294753 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to JJKillian [ As Ad ]
kobi50111 raises [45].
gsassin01 folds.
ratisse calls [45].
TaylormadeTM folds.
JJKillian raises [150].
thenigel calls [150].
JJD925 folds.
Stewe81 folds.
RipUinDaEye folds.
deagan20 folds.
kobi50111 folds.
ratisse calls [105].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8s, 4h, Ks ]
ratisse checks.
JJKillian is all-In [725]
thenigel calls [725].
ratisse folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ah ]
** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]
JJKillian shows [ As, Ad ] a full house, Aces full of kings.
thenigel shows [ Qc, Qd ] two pairs, kings and queens.
JJKillian wins 1970 chips from the main pot with a full house, Aces full of kings.

I would have to do some serious crunching, but I truly think in these spots I make more than I give up to the folds. And for some reason it seems to work better in the 55's than any other lvl.

JJ

[microbet]

I hope people keep posting about this. I have tried it at various levels, without really keeping track, and have had mixed results.

[JJKillian]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope people keep posting about this. I have tried it at various levels, without really keeping track, and have had mixed results.

[/ QUOTE ]

like you I have not really kept track. But like the hand I posted where there is a flush draw out one or two things seems to happen to me when I make this play in lvl 1.

1. I get called by top pair or higher pp thinking I am on the draw.

2. I get called by the draw.

obviously there are more, but those seem to be the 2 most commons things I see when I get called.

JJ

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
I hope people keep posting about this. I have tried it at various levels, without really keeping track, and have had mixed results.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad people find value in the threads I start /images/graemlins/grin.gif

And JJKillian, thanks for your examples. Seems like the push with a monster really pays off. I've tried this today with a lot of success.

[JimNashe]

I only play $10+1's so your mileage may wary, but the other day I had a hand where I felt the opponent had only high cards and I went all-in on a bluff. He then thought for a while, called me with Q high and called me an idiot for making what he referred to as "the partypoker out-of-nowhere all-in". So the past couple of days I've experimented with going all-in with big hands instead of betting a reasonable amount and I've had great success with it.

Example:

***** Hand History for Game 2819208001 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:16297473 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Monday, October 03, 17:25:04 EDT 2005
Table Table 11206 (Real Money)
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 3: player4 ( $725 )
Seat 4: button ( $450 )
Seat 5: SB ( $830 )
Seat 6: Villain ( $1035 )
Seat 7: player1 ( $925 )
Seat 8: player2 ( $700 )
Seat 9: Hero ( $2265 )
Seat 10: player3 ( $1070 )
Trny:16297473 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Jh Qs ]
player1 folds.
player2 folds.
Hero calls [30].
player3 folds.
player4 calls [30].
button calls [30].
SB folds.
Villain checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ Tc, As, 3s ]
Villain checks.
Hero checks.
player4 checks.
button checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Kd ]
Villain bets [40].
Hero is all-In.
player4 folds.
button folds.
Villain is all-In.
** Dealing River ** [ Kh ]
Villain shows [ Ac, 5d ] two pairs, aces and kings.
Hero shows [ Jh, Qs ] a straight, ten to ace.
Hero wins 1230 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, ten to ace.
Hero wins 2145 chips from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.
Villain finished in eighth place.
Villain has left the table.

[llabb]

I've been experimenting with my early game and the betting strategies lately. I primarily play the $55's. I'm on another computer, so I don't have the HH's right now, but I've been overbetting my monsters with success lately. Primarily suited connectors that make the flush or straight.

One pattern was a suited connector late position limp, 2 early callers. Low ragged board which made me open-ended. Checked to me on the flop, I hesitate, and then min-bet. 2 calls. Turn completes my straight. Again checked to me, again hesitate and min-bet. 2 calls. Flop is high card. Checked to me, I hesitate, then push all-in. One caller, TPGK.

I like this pattern, because it looks like a bluff to loose callers, and you get paid off with sets, TP, and sometimes even mid-pair. The times that everyone folds and you don't get any value from your hand are more than made up for by the times you get called.

[Chaostracize]

Why would you be bluff pushing flops?

[JJKillian]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been experimenting with my early game and the betting strategies lately. I primarily play the $55's. I'm on another computer, so I don't have the HH's right now, but I've been overbetting my monsters with success lately. Primarily suited connectors that make the flush or straight.

One pattern was a suited connector late position limp, 2 early callers. Low ragged board which made me open-ended. Checked to me on the flop, I hesitate, and then min-bet. 2 calls. Turn completes my straight. Again checked to me, again hesitate and min-bet. 2 calls. Flop is high card. Checked to me, I hesitate, then push all-in. One caller, TPGK.

I like this pattern, because it looks like a bluff to loose callers, and you get paid off with sets, TP, and sometimes even mid-pair. The times that everyone folds and you don't get any value from your hand are more than made up for by the times you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah I totally agree, although I have noticed that when someone hesitates (takes longer than normal to bet) it is usually something strong if not the nuts.

It is funny to because a good player will call you just as fast as a bad one. The good player sees you betting crazy for no reason other than to drive everyone out. And the bad player just calls anyway.

JJ

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you be bluff pushing flops?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's not go on about that lol. It was given as an example of a trend I have seen lately. The point to this thread is should we be pushing monsters, seeing as people give you little or no credit for a hand.

[ QUOTE ]
yeah I totally agree, although I have noticed that when someone hesitates (takes longer than normal to bet) it is usually something strong if not the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or they are multi-tabling...

To add to the "database": I was watching three $55s to get a feel for how the play was, I had noticed several all-ins early. One had a draw, the other had TP Varying Kicker. It was a couple of weeks ago so I don't remember who did the pushing and who did the calling.

[axeshigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you be bluff pushing flops?

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't, but at the lower levels that's how people bust so quick. (not bluffing but pushing flush draws, oesd's, and mid-pair)

[Uppercut]

How about the bluff-call? Tonight on a Pokerstars $11 SnG, a fish called an all-in bet on the river in level 1, only to turn over an A high. (He had over 1,000 chips at this point.)

[Chaostracize]

Moderately sized bets are respected much more than the big ones. If I really believe I am up against another hand, I will overbet, and I get paid off often. It's not in an SNGers arsenal to lay down to overbets when he catches a flop.

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
Moderately sized bets are respected much more than the big ones. If I really believe I am up against another hand, I will overbet, and I get paid off often. It's not in an SNGers arsenal to lay down to overbets when he catches a flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly the point I am trying to make.

[pergesu]

I find overbets to be a big sign of weakness at the lower limits. For example, three times tonight I limped with jacks in EP on like level 1/2, and some guy in LP would jack it to 215 or so. I had absolutely no problem shoving my stack in, and twice I got showed an underpair and once it was A4.

Same thing on any street. Massive overbets scream bluff and people just hate to be bluffed out. They're way happier going broke knowing that they're beat, rather than losing 50 chips and wondering if you really had the best hand.

If I think my opponent will call his stack off with a hand I can beat, I shove. Sometimes I'm right and I pwn him, sometimes I'm wrong and he folds. I think in the end I get max or near max value, because stacking somebody in one tourney is way better than getting 1/3 of their stack in each of three tourneys.

[MegaBet]

Good post pergesu.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
If I think my opponent will call his stack off with a hand I can beat, I shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a good way to break down this whole thread in one simple sentence. I think this was a useful post.

I value overpushed the nuts last night (a relatively new move for me) because I thought I'd get a call from a player who had shown some strength. I got the call. I was up 10+ buyins at the end of the set. Mere coincidence? Anecdotal evidence? Small sample size? I think not! It was obviously this thread that made me that cash. (All nonsense aside though, this was a good thread.)

[MegaBet]

[ QUOTE ]
It was obviously this thread that made me that cash. (All nonsense aside though, this was a good thread.)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the anti-OT thread /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ace_in_the_hole]

I have been playing mucho $33's lately, I always seem to push monsters on the flop if I raised preflop and it looks like I'm making a continuation overbet. I get clled with A high sometimes. It is definatley about letting people's egos make mistakes for them.

[MegaBet]

Maybe I should have kept this "revelation" to myself! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[JJKillian]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I should have kept this "revelation" to myself! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the same exact thing when I first responded to this thread. I have been making these types of plays for a few months now. But I have learned a ton from these boards so it isn't right not giving back.

JJ

[fisherman112]

the weaker the player, the more likely they missed when they overbet. at the 100+9s and the 200+15s, most of the regulars seem to adequetely mix up their overbets.
the only time i feel it's still dependable to call with A-high or bottom pair is against stop-and-goes in the money and on the bubble.

[microbet]

/images/graemlins/smile.gif
We've all thought about it, and most of us had tried it. Lorinda posted about it a while ago /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

What about the being on the other end? I still often call the overbet being pretty sure they don't have a super strong made hand.

You think this is still good? Just if you watch out for 2+2ers?

Well I think it's still good in general.