10-03-2005, 12:56 PM
I want some other input on this too: Can anyone else add anything?
(From the SETI thread)
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OOO: I'm attempting to explore the issue of whether information rich systems can result from natural forces and processes, or whether they all require intelligence.
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JeffV: Information = meaningful text, that is complex, in a specific order, and is also non-repeating.
Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.
It's my contention that any time we see complex information it has been created/authored/designed or boofed- (that's what my high school biology teacher used to refer to creation as. The boofed theory.)
That should get us started huh?
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OK, sounds good.
Example of information coming from natural laws that doesn't involve intelligence: Bacteria developing resistance to antiobiotic drugs. They generate and store completely new information within their genetic code, and pass it on. They do this purely through through the forces of physics (atom bonding, electron attraction/repulsion). There is no intelligent input. New information is created.
I hear you saying: Ah! But they're been created by God to do that.
Perhaps, but that's completely irrelevant. New information is being created by purely physical processes. Think about it. All that was needed for this to occur was for the molecules to be in the right arrangement to begin with, just like the transistors of a computer (which also works on purely natural forces). So what we disagree on is not with the creation of new information is possible by physical laws, but rather whether molecules can get into the right arrangement on their own. Do you agree? (Just to clarify, I'm asking your position here, not trying to make a point /images/graemlins/smile.gif )
Now let's have a look at this contention:
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Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not quite true. Imagine a planet full of nothing but elements in various concentrations, especially carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and an energy source. With nothing but physicals laws, these basic elements will form into amino acids, polymers, and self assembling molecules. Each of these molecules has a code to create other molecules of its kind - by purely natural laws - and even to create more complex polymers through natural forces. How is this not information? It may not be tremendously complex, but is that the point? (See above about bacteria).
Can anyone more knowledgable add anything or fix anything? I'm not a biologist or chemist, I've only studied introductory level at uni.
(From the SETI thread)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
OOO: I'm attempting to explore the issue of whether information rich systems can result from natural forces and processes, or whether they all require intelligence.
[/ QUOTE ]
JeffV: Information = meaningful text, that is complex, in a specific order, and is also non-repeating.
Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.
It's my contention that any time we see complex information it has been created/authored/designed or boofed- (that's what my high school biology teacher used to refer to creation as. The boofed theory.)
That should get us started huh?
[/ QUOTE ]
OK, sounds good.
Example of information coming from natural laws that doesn't involve intelligence: Bacteria developing resistance to antiobiotic drugs. They generate and store completely new information within their genetic code, and pass it on. They do this purely through through the forces of physics (atom bonding, electron attraction/repulsion). There is no intelligent input. New information is created.
I hear you saying: Ah! But they're been created by God to do that.
Perhaps, but that's completely irrelevant. New information is being created by purely physical processes. Think about it. All that was needed for this to occur was for the molecules to be in the right arrangement to begin with, just like the transistors of a computer (which also works on purely natural forces). So what we disagree on is not with the creation of new information is possible by physical laws, but rather whether molecules can get into the right arrangement on their own. Do you agree? (Just to clarify, I'm asking your position here, not trying to make a point /images/graemlins/smile.gif )
Now let's have a look at this contention:
[ QUOTE ]
Information can't come from natural or physical laws because they always repeat. They insure that you can't get anything more meaningful-since it's a law it always repeats the same pattern.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is not quite true. Imagine a planet full of nothing but elements in various concentrations, especially carbon, oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, and an energy source. With nothing but physicals laws, these basic elements will form into amino acids, polymers, and self assembling molecules. Each of these molecules has a code to create other molecules of its kind - by purely natural laws - and even to create more complex polymers through natural forces. How is this not information? It may not be tremendously complex, but is that the point? (See above about bacteria).
Can anyone more knowledgable add anything or fix anything? I'm not a biologist or chemist, I've only studied introductory level at uni.