Manny Ramirez

[kenberman]

Sorry in advance for starting another AL/Red Sox thread.

But, I think the Manny Ramirez situation is an interesting 'problem' for Boston. Bob Ryan touches on some of the major points in his column (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/10/03/ramirez_man_of_the_hour/) today.

The guy is one of the best hitters of all time. His 144 RBI this year are only his 3rd highest total, and he had 9 home runs and 19 RBI's in the closing 12 games of the season, when his team needed him the most. He leads the Majors in assists, yet his defense is average at best. His base running can range anywhere from terrible to acceptable. he makes $20 million dollars. his teamates generally like him, even when he does crazy things, b/c they know he's just a lunatic. even the opposition doesn't seem to care when he admires a 360 foot home run for 10 seconds, b/c they also know he's a lunatic. the rumor is that his manager and the ownership group doesn't like him, but how much does this matter?

so, if you're Theo Epstein, what do you do with him? live with his annual trade requests, $20M salary, pouting, and sometimes dogging it as an acceptable downside to his (spectacular) one dimensional play? or do the negatives outweigh the positives?

[istewart]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

[kenberman]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

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I didn't tell a joke.

the guy makes some great plays; I remember him going into the stands to steal a HR in the ALCS last year; perhaps you do as well.

he also makes some bad plays.

he also led the league in assists this year.

this is why he is average at best.

[Voltron87]

If you're Theo, youu put up with him because he's one of the best hitters ever in baseball. The positives outweight the negatives by far. If he was just a very good hitter then I would say "no's hes not worth that much and you shouldn't put up with his crap" but he's so much better than that.

Unless Theo could find an really awesome way to spend the 20m (highly unlikely) I don't think it makes sense to trade him.

[TheRover]

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he also led the league in assists this year.

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I would guess that this is because everybody runs on him. You're gonna throw some people out if you get twice as many chances as most guys.

[istewart]

Come on, he's terrible out there.

[Voltron87]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

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I didn't tell a joke.

the guy makes some great plays; I remember him going into the stands to steal a HR in the ALCS last year; perhaps you do as well.

he also makes some bad plays.

he also led the league in assists this year.

this is why he is average at best.

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A broken watch tells the right time twice a day. By your logic if a fielder ever makes an average or good play he is "average at best". That's BS. Manny leads the league in assists, and Ichiro has very few. It's pretty meaningless. The number of bases/errors people take off Manny far outweighs the assists.

[Toro]

If I'm the Red Sox GM, I only dump him if I don't have to pick up any of his salary. Then you have the full $20 million to replace him with other players.

Manny's extra value lies with Ortiz. Ortiz is so successful because Manny hits behind him. Lose Manny and everyone pitches around Ortiz.

[kenberman]

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he also led the league in assists this year.

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I would guess that this is because everybody runs on him. You're gonna throw some people out if you get twice as many chances as most guys.

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this is a factor, but I'm not really sure it matters. if you think I suck, and decide to test me, and I throw you out, does it really matter why you decided to run? you just made an out, and my team benefited from your mistake.

also, I don't think he gets twice as many chances. it's not like people run on him at every opportunity. if this was true, you would see guys like Johnny Damon and Bernie Williams get huge assist numbers, as well.

[imported_The Vibesman]

Such a non-issue. His "annual trade requests" (what, two out of the last five seasons or something?) are nothing. He seems to retract them ten minutes after making them. I'm not even sure it's true, it's likely rumors started by the front office to help justify trying to trade their best player. Pouting? I've never seen him pout. I've never heard him pout. His "sometimes" dogging it? No one plays 100% all the time. One of the funniest things in the Bob "I'm a Moron" Ryan column: "When David Ortiz hit his tying homer in that same game, he was motoring out of that batter's box the instant the ball left his bat." Implying that David never admires a home run or fails to run out a grounder is ludicrous. NO ONE Cadillacs more around the bases after a home run than David Ortiz, who also fails to run out grounders at times, and doesn't play left field anywhere near as well as Manny Ramirez. BTW, I love David, almost as much as I love Manny.

The salary? Admittedly, he's a bit overpaid. Was a necessary evil to get him, as Cleveland was well willing to almost meet the contract he signed here. But really, for his #'s, you could expect to pay about 15 mil per year on the open market, and I feel the reliability of Manny playing so many games every year at a consistently high level year after year, despite his bad hammies, is worth the extra 5 mil; really, hardly anyone else in baseball works as hard as he does to be in shape and to be sharp. Even if it wasn't worth the extra five mil, you end up eating at least that in salary when you trade him, and you have to then replace him and it becomes a net loss. Those that think he's expendable because of Ortiz, thought the same of Pedro being expendable because of Schilling, and now our rotation sux. Not worth saving 5 mil, which you probably can't save anyway.

[kenberman]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

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I didn't tell a joke.

the guy makes some great plays; I remember him going into the stands to steal a HR in the ALCS last year; perhaps you do as well.

he also makes some bad plays.

he also led the league in assists this year.

this is why he is average at best.

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A broken watch tells the right time twice a day. By your logic if a fielder ever makes an average or good play he is "average at best". That's BS. Manny leads the league in assists, and Ichiro has very few. It's pretty meaningless. The number of bases/errors people take off Manny far outweighs the assists.

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ok, fine, so he's below average defensively. I'll concede that, since I said he was "average at best". he had 7 errors this season, which isn't a lot, but I agree he doesn't cover a lot of ground (anymore).

it doesn't really matter that much to this discussion anyway, since he's not a net positive at his position, but he's not a huge liability either. out of 10, he's probably a 3 or 4. 5 being average.

[imported_The Vibesman]

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he also led the league in assists this year.

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I would guess that this is because everybody runs on him. You're gonna throw some people out if you get twice as many chances as most guys.

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Manny has the strongest, most accurate arm on the Sox; by the #s or anecdotally, this is true. He gets rid of the ball quickly and 99 times out of 100 makes the right decision about which base to throw the ball. He very rarely lets balls get by him to the wall that shouldn't get by him. He has very limited range, which probably makes him slightly below average as a fielder. But he is far from as bad as everyone makes him out to be.

I watch about 145 Sox games a year, and listen to the rest on the radio; the only time I miss them is during live tournaments (and sometimes distracted playing online, but they're on behind me) - I have a very hard time remembering any single game which turned on Manny's defense, one way or the other. For all the detractors, I have never heard any one of them say, "The Sox would have won that game if not for Manny's defensive play in..."

[sam h]

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this is a factor, but I'm not really sure it matters. if you think I suck, and decide to test me, and I throw you out, does it really matter why you decided to run? you just made an out, and my team benefited from your mistake.

also, I don't think he gets twice as many chances. it's not like people run on him at every opportunity. if this was true, you would see guys like Johnny Damon and Bernie Williams get huge assist numbers, as well.

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Its a combination of (a) more people running on him (b) teams probably doing this more than they should and (c) playing left-field in Fenway.

Manny has worked hard on his defense and is not terrible anymore. He might be supbpar but I don't think he's far enough below leageu average to really make much of a difference. He makes the bonehead play every once in a while that leaves you scratching your head, but its not like the guy is a huge liability out there.

[pokerdirty]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

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http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/writers/pete_mcentegart/11/24/ten.spot/tx_mannyramirezfield_getty.jpg

[kenberman]

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Such a non-issue.

[/ QUOTE ] this situation is many things, but it's certainly not a non-issue.

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His "annual trade requests" (what, two out of the last five seasons or something?) are nothing.

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the front office says they are annual. but if you think they are lying, I guess we can't discuss this point.

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Pouting? I've never seen him pout.

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I have. maybe he doesn't actually make a /images/graemlins/frown.gif in the dugout, but when he refuses to go into a game, or needs excessive time off, or doesn't hustle down the line, that's pouting.

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Was a necessary evil to get him, as Cleveland was well willing to almost meet the contract he signed here.

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uhh, Dan Duquette outbid himself by about $50M to sign Manny. Cleveland was probably paying $15m/year, max. we got him for $20M. the difference is not insignificant.

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hardly anyone else in baseball works as hard as he does to be in shape and to be sharp.

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I agree, which is part of the Manny dilemna.

[kenberman]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

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http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/writers/pete_mcentegart/11/24/ten.spot/tx_mannyramirezfield_getty.jpg

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I was sitting about 30 feet from Manny when he made that play. he was MVP of that (World) series, btw, despite the error.

[mmbt0ne]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

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http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/baseball/mlb/09/18/bc.bba.redsox.yankees.ap/p1_917_sox.yanks_ap.jpg

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FYP

[imported_The Vibesman]

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this situation is many things, but it's certainly not a non-issue.


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I think it is. It's a tempest in a teapot, stirred up by reporters who need controversy to sell newspapers. But if you are just going to say, "It is an issue," and be done with it, whatever. As a fan, I don't think it is.
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the front office says they are annual. but if you think they are lying, I guess we can't discuss this point.


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Disregarding whether or not I think the reports of trade requests are truthful (and remember, we've never gotten any of this from the horse's mouth) I do believe it's only the last two offseasons that there have been reports of his requesting a trade. I believe we need at least three occurences before we can call it a trend?
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I have. maybe he doesn't actually make a /images/graemlins/frown.gif in the dugout, but when he refuses to go into a game,

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Which he has (reportedly) done exactly once in his career, and we have no idea as to what his health issues were

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or needs excessive time off

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Consistently plays more games in the field than any other Red Sox player

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or doesn't hustle down the line

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Doesn't do this any more or less than other big sluggers, or even some players that aren't so big

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that's pouting.

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Wide definition.

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uhh, Dan Duquette outbid himself by about $50M to sign Manny. Cleveland was probably paying $15m/year, max. we got him for $20M. the difference is not insignificant.


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You may be thinking of the A-Rod negotiations. There was an hour-long ESPN special focused on Moorad and the drama of the Cleveland-Boston bidding war for Ramirez. It was certainly a lot closer than that. Duke did what he had to do to get an RBI guy behind Nomar that we desperately needed.
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hardly anyone else in baseball works as hard as he does to be in shape and to be sharp. -

I agree, which is part of the Manny dilemna.

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At least we agree on something...



Something else I want to touch on here, and it has to do with the "Francona doesn't like Manny" comment. I agree with this, but I don't know what Terry's problem is. Perhaps he is jealous of Manny's talent, and his ability to excel at baseball to a degree that Terry couldn't. I do know that many of the controversies regarding Manny's missing a game or two are pretty much Terry's fault; he needs to learn to handle things in-house and not in the papers or on the radio. If, for some reason, Terry and Manny have problems, that is Terry Francona's problem, not mine. It is his job to manage the team, and control the personalities. When Francona came on the radio earlier this season and said, we asked him to play and he decided he needed the day off, my reaction was, "Really? When did you start letting Manny make out the lineup card?" If I'm Francona, there's no way I tell the press that the players are making out the lineup card for me, and reveal how weak a manager I am. There's also no way I call a player out in the press. Jimy Williams woulda kept in in-house, I tell you that.

[Voltron87]

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Something else I want to touch on here, and it has to do with the "Francona doesn't like Manny" comment. I agree with this, but I don't know what Terry's problem is. Perhaps he is jealous of Manny's talent, and his ability to excel at baseball to a degree that Terry couldn't. I do know that many of the controversies regarding Manny's missing a game or two are pretty much Terry's fault; he needs to learn to handle things in-house and not in the papers or on the radio.

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I think that if Terry doesn't like Manny it isn't because he is hating on him for his mad right handed batting skillz. It's probably because he doesn't think Manny treats him with respect as the manager, which I do think Manny should handle better. But I don't really have my ear to the sox clubhouse, but that's the impression I get.

[imported_The Vibesman]

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yet his defense is average at best

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lol

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http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/writers/pete_mcentegart/11/24/ten.spot/tx_mannyramirezfield_getty.jpg

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Wow. He went into a slide to try to take away a base hit, and a piece of sod ripped up under him, causing him to slip and miss the play. This could happen to anyone, and no one makes the play when it does happen to them.

You couldn't find anything better?

[imported_The Vibesman]

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Something else I want to touch on here, and it has to do with the "Francona doesn't like Manny" comment. I agree with this, but I don't know what Terry's problem is. Perhaps he is jealous of Manny's talent, and his ability to excel at baseball to a degree that Terry couldn't. I do know that many of the controversies regarding Manny's missing a game or two are pretty much Terry's fault; he needs to learn to handle things in-house and not in the papers or on the radio.

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I think that if Terry doesn't like Manny it isn't because he is hating on him for his mad right handed batting skillz. It's probably because he doesn't think Manny treats him with respect as the manager, which I do think Manny should handle better. But I don't really have my ear to the sox clubhouse, but that's the impression I get.

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If Terry doesn't think Manny treats him with respect as a manager, that is his problem. He needs to deal with that with Manny and with management. I don't want to hear him bitch about it on the radio, I don't want to hear the play-by-play guys recounting his complaints during the game. If he has a real problem with Manny, he should discipline him, bench him, fine him, call the kangaroo court together in the clubhouse and deal with that. That's his job, not giving the papers gossip. He could take a lesson from Manny in taking the high road; despite all the negativity about him coming from Francona and even management at times, Manny has never ever said anything publically that is anything but supportive of management. My "jealousy" comment is really just a shot in the dark; Francona is in every other way a players' manager, and I don't understand the crappy attitude he has towards Manny, or his constant need to air it out in the press.

That said, I try not to pay too much attention; I like the games, not soap operas. I don't watch pre-game or post-game shows.

I just wish it were more like hockey - sure there are probably locker room squabbles over roles, playing time, maybe a coach doesn't think a guy is hustling, etc., but publicly the players back the coaches and management, the coaches back the players and management, management backs the coaches and the players. Pre-, mid-, and postgame interviews are the most boring things you've ever heard in your life, and everyone is forced to focus on the game. It's awesome.

BTW Voltron, congrats on you Yanks and your September, that was really something. Glad to see you changed your avatar to someone who is pitching effectively. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[pokerdirty]

i'm not ripping on manny via this picture. i love manny. i think this was game 1 last year in the WS, when he made 2 errors in a single inning. people were ripping on mannys defense, and that image is flashed in my brain everytime i hear people talking about it.

Manny may have cost the yankees the game on sunday early on, when Jeter lead off with a ball against the monster, and threw him out at second. (Yes, i know the game was a blow out, but if NYY gets on the board first, the whole game could have been changed., please don't start a flame war over this second paragraph.)

[imported_The Vibesman]

No flames here, my man. Given Schilling's shaky pitching in the first, and the fact that Jeter would have possibly scored had he reached 2nd there, (I say possibly because as hard hit as Sheffield's ball was, he may have been held at 3rd) I agree that that play was important to keep the Yanks from gaining any momentum before Schilling could get settled down.

[nyc999]

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he also led the league in assists this year.

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I would guess that this is because everybody runs on him. You're gonna throw some people out if you get twice as many chances as most guys.

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To add on this, I think a lot of players see the ball go off the Monster and automatically think double. A guess, but I would like to see a breakdown of his assists (2B vs. home)

[nyc999]

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Sorry in advance for starting another AL/Red Sox thread.

But, I think the Manny Ramirez situation is an interesting 'problem' for Boston. Bob Ryan touches on some of the major points in his column (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/10/03/ramirez_man_of_the_hour/) today.

The guy is one of the best hitters of all time. His 144 RBI this year are only his 3rd highest total, and he had 9 home runs and 19 RBI's in the closing 12 games of the season, when his team needed him the most. He leads the Majors in assists, yet his defense is average at best. His base running can range anywhere from terrible to acceptable. he makes $20 million dollars. his teamates generally like him, even when he does crazy things, b/c they know he's just a lunatic. even the opposition doesn't seem to care when he admires a 360 foot home run for 10 seconds, b/c they also know he's a lunatic. the rumor is that his manager and the ownership group doesn't like him, but how much does this matter?

so, if you're Theo Epstein, what do you do with him? live with his annual trade requests, $20M salary, pouting, and sometimes dogging it as an acceptable downside to his (spectacular) one dimensional play? or do the negatives outweigh the positives?

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There is no one they could put in the lineup that would fill the void left by him, except a small handful of players that Boston has no chance of signing anytime soon. That is why they didn't trade him by the deadline and its why they put up with him. He's too valuable.

[imported_The Vibesman]

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he also led the league in assists this year.

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I would guess that this is because everybody runs on him. You're gonna throw some people out if you get twice as many chances as most guys.

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To add on this, I think a lot of players see the ball go off the Monster and automatically think double. A guess, but I would like to see a breakdown of his assists (2B vs. home)

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I'm not a stats guy, and have no idea where to find such a breakdown. However, you'd have to compare it with the same breakdown for his peers. I'm sure a good amount of outs come at 2nd because it is closer to the outfield than Home is.

Manny does get a lot of assists because he plays the wall very well. I'm sure he's worked hard to be able to do so. It's funny that people try to take credit away from him because he plays his position well on his home field.

[Paluka]

As a Sox fan, I love Manny and it would kill me if he was gone.

[nyc999]

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he also led the league in assists this year.

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I would guess that this is because everybody runs on him. You're gonna throw some people out if you get twice as many chances as most guys.

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To add on this, I think a lot of players see the ball go off the Monster and automatically think double. A guess, but I would like to see a breakdown of his assists (2B vs. home)

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I'm not a stats guy, and have no idea where to find such a breakdown. However, you'd have to compare it with the same breakdown for his peers. I'm sure a good amount of outs come at 2nd because it is closer to the outfield than Home is.

Manny does get a lot of assists because he plays the wall very well. I'm sure he's worked hard to be able to do so. It's funny that people try to take credit away from him because he plays his position well on his home field.

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I'm not taking away any credit, in fact I never said he was a bad outfielder. All I'm saying is with the short-LF he might get more opportunities than other LFs to throw out guys at 2B.

[pokerdirty]

http://www4.fosters.com/redsox/102404/ramirez-copy_o24.jpg

haha, sorry, it's just so funny! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Toro]

When he first came to the Sox he wouldn't play left, it was pretty funny actually, Manny being Manny before we all knew about Manny being Manny. Pretty ironic since him playing left has been sort of a savior for both him and the team.

Left is very easy to play in Fenway once you get used to the Wall which doesn't take long. He would have been a disaster in RF in Fenway which is very tough to play.

[pokerdirty]

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When he first came to the Sox he wouldn't play left, it was pretty funny actually, Manny being Manny before we all knew about Manny being Manny. Pretty ironic since him playing left has been sort of a savior for both him and the team.

Left is very easy to play in Fenway once you get used to the Wall which doesn't take long. He would have been a disaster in RF in Fenway which is very tough to play.

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he could have played right just fine, just as long as he had his thumps on during those day games /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Toro]

If he stayed in RF there would have been tons of triples.

[imported_The Vibesman]

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When he first came to the Sox he wouldn't play left, it was pretty funny actually, Manny being Manny before we all knew about Manny being Manny.

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Of course, in Manny's first year with the Sox he played exclusively left field when he wasn't DH'ing, having such a tough time with it that he posted a 1.000 fielding percentage in 55 games. I do remember the rumors during spring training in the papers that he was unhappy with the switch, rumors that were never once corroborated by Ramirez or Williams, both of whom said simply that Manny was willing to do whatever was best for the team. Business as usual for the Boston press.

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Left is very easy to play in Fenway once you get used to the Wall which doesn't take long. He would have been a disaster in RF in Fenway which is very tough to play.

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So much of a disaster, that when he was pressed into service in right for 7 appearances for 52 innings in 2002, following an injury to often-injured Trot Nixon (fricken Nixon, always missing games) he posted a 1.000 fielding percentage.

Now don't get me wrong, I have no doubt the Sox are better off with an outfielder with more range than Manny covering right field. I take issue with the word, "disaster."

[pokerdirty]

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If he stayed in RF there would have been tons of triples.

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sarcasm?

[Toro]

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If he stayed in RF there would have been tons of triples.

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sarcasm?

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No. No. No sarcasm at all. If you know anything about RF in Fenway you know that it's pretty easy to butcher a lot of hits into triples.

[kenberman]

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If he stayed in RF there would have been tons of triples.

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sarcasm?

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No. No. No sarcasm at all. If you know anything about RF in Fenway you know that it's pretty easy to butcher a lot of hits into triples.

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I believe it's the biggest RF in the league, and arguably the toughest to play as well.

[Toro]

At first, in Spring training he wouldn't do it.

Knowledgeable fans were rightly miffed because we knew from experience because of Jim Rice and Ted Williams that he could handle LF. And despite the small sample size you have presented, my opinion, and you won't change it, is that he would have been a disaster in RF.

[pokerdirty]

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If he stayed in RF there would have been tons of triples.

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sarcasm?

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No. No. No sarcasm at all. If you know anything about RF in Fenway you know that it's pretty easy to butcher a lot of hits into triples.

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i mean I was the one being sarcastic...yes, i think manny in the long run in right would be pretty bad as well.

[imported_The Vibesman]

rumors that were never once corroborated by Ramirez or Williams, both of whom said simply that Manny was willing to do whatever was best for the team. Business as usual for the Boston press.

*edit. Damn. I'll correct myself.

It was announced in Feb. 01 that Manny would be moved to left. At the time, Manny said he would do whatever he needed to to help the team. Right before the first spring training game, williams announced that Manny had requested to be moved back to right, as he was not comfortable in left. Jimy, wanting him to be comfortable, obliged him at that time.

Manny Requests Move Back (http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/news/mlb_20010301_mannyRF_news.jsp)

Manny DH'd the beginning of the season due to a hamstring injury, during which time he was informed that he would be moved to left field, with the team using the sorry state of his hammies as an excuse. Ramirez agreed without incident.

"They've asked me to take balls off the wall," Ramirez told the Herald. "(Manager) Jimy (Williams) said right field here is too big and since my leg is not 100 percent, they want me to play left."

"My leg is not 100 percent yet and over there (in right), there's a lot of ground to cover."

Manny Agrees to Play Left (http://espn.go.com/mlb/news/2001/0509/1194001.html)

So my above statement is wrong.

I don't know what you mean by the Ted Williams/Jim Rice comments. I can imagine that Manny may have been a bit more comfortable playing right than left, he was, after all, a right fielder his entire career. You say that "knowledgable" fans were miffed, I remember not thinking much about it. I remember Glen Ordway and his crew being miffed and blowing it out of proportion, naturally.

[Toro]

Neither Ted Williams nor Jim Rice were particularly good fielders but both "mastered" the Wall and played very decent LF in Fenway. So there was a history of sluggers that were deficient fielders having success playing LF in Fenway. That's what I meant.

[sublime]

I say there is a VERY goods chance hes gone this offseason. Its all about the $$$$$$ btw.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Neither Ted Williams nor Jim Rice were particularly good fielders but both "mastered" the Wall and played very decent LF in Fenway. So there was a history of sluggers that were deficient fielders having success playing LF in Fenway. That's what I meant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Manny plays LF in Fenway pretty well. He knows the wall so well that he plays VERY shallow which allows him to get to a few extra flys that HE wouldnt be able to each year.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
I say there is a VERY goods chance hes gone this offseason. Its all about the $$$$$$ btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't see who's going to take him. Isn't he going into his sixth year of an eight year contract? His average salary in the contract was $20 million. But, I think it has higher salaries in at least the final two years of the contract.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say there is a VERY goods chance hes gone this offseason. Its all about the $$$$$$ btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't see who's going to take him. Isn't he going into his sixth year of an eight year contract? His average salary in the contract was $20 million. But, I think it has higher salaries in at least the final two years of the contract.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the Yankees are capable of anything. And I would love it if he came...




Now that I've come to terms with the fact that Boston has won a world series my attitude towards all things red sox has changed. Except for the [censored] bandwagon young college fan thing, they're still at a shoot on sight basis.

You would never hear me say that about manny 6 months ago.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
Except for the fags that constitute 99% of current Red Sox fans, they're still at a shoot on sight basis.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I say there is a VERY goods chance hes gone this offseason. Its all about the $$$$$$ btw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't see who's going to take him. Isn't he going into his sixth year of an eight year contract? His average salary in the contract was $20 million. But, I think it has higher salaries in at least the final two years of the contract.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Mets are dumb enough to give us prospects (heilman etc) and the yankees are rich enough.

Thats it though, IMO.

[cdxx]

[ QUOTE ]
so, if you're Theo Epstein, what do you do with him? live with his annual trade requests, $20M salary, pouting, and sometimes dogging it as an acceptable downside to his (spectacular) one dimensional play? or do the negatives outweigh the positives?

[/ QUOTE ]

you put up with him because he sells a lot of tickets for the red sox. boston fans love homeruns over the green monster.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
you put up with him because he sells a lot of tickets for the red sox

[/ QUOTE ]

Right,m like the Sox don't sell out with out Manny.

edited, b/c orig post was insulting

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so, if you're Theo Epstein, what do you do with him? live with his annual trade requests, $20M salary, pouting, and sometimes dogging it as an acceptable downside to his (spectacular) one dimensional play? or do the negatives outweigh the positives?

[/ QUOTE ]

you put up with him because he sells a lot of tickets for the red sox. boston fans love homeruns over the green monster.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhh with the combination of how small fenway park is and how popular the sox are, they dont need manny to sell out at all.

[andyfox]

You say he's one of the greatest hitters of all-time. I agree. I think he's underrated as a hitter. In the past eight years he's averaged 41 home runs, 130 RBI, .318, and his lowest OPS has been .971.

Hard to say how his career will look from here though. He'll be 34 next year. He started very slowly this year, which accounts for his low (for him) batting average. Does he take care of himself? He's done just about as well on the road as at home the last three years, he'd hit anywhere.

[sublime]

edited, b/c orig post was insulting

awesome

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]

edited, b/c orig post was insulting

awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

It was just not nice at all.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
You say he's one of the greatest hitters of all-time. I agree. I think he's underrated as a hitter. In the past eight years he's averaged 41 home runs, 130 RBI, .318, and his lowest OPS has been .971.

Hard to say how his career will look from here though. He'll be 34 next year. He started very slowly this year, which accounts for his low (for him) batting average. Does he take care of himself? He's done just about as well on the road as at home the last three years, he'd hit anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

He ended up 4th in OPS and 3rd in HR, with tons of RBIs and some big games for the sox. That's not too shabby for a season with an awful start.

I've got to admit, a certain part of me wants to see him play as a Yankee.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
I've got to admit, a certain part of me wants to see him play as a Yankee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's any chance of this happening. It's too risky from a PR standpoint for the Sox front office.

[technologic]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You say he's one of the greatest hitters of all-time. I agree. I think he's underrated as a hitter. In the past eight years he's averaged 41 home runs, 130 RBI, .318, and his lowest OPS has been .971.

Hard to say how his career will look from here though. He'll be 34 next year. He started very slowly this year, which accounts for his low (for him) batting average. Does he take care of himself? He's done just about as well on the road as at home the last three years, he'd hit anywhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

He ended up 4th in OPS and 3rd in HR, with tons of RBIs and some big games for the sox. That's not too shabby for a season with an awful start.

I've got to admit, a certain part of me wants to see him play as a Yankee.

[/ QUOTE ]

we've got enough bad contracts right now...and he's not getting any younger

[Sooga]

I absolutely agree. Everyone thinks Manny Ramirez and immediately thinks of all the bone-headed things he does, but the fact is, this guy is in a group with Barry Bonds, Frank Thomas and Alex Rodriguez as the best hitters of my generation. I'm probably forgetting a name, but I honestly can't think of anyone right now to join them (Pujols has a few more years to go). My only worry is that Manny will start getting injured more often, as was the case with Frank Thomas after he turned about 33. But my guess is Manny is too dumb to get injured.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I've got to admit, a certain part of me wants to see him play as a Yankee.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think there's any chance of this happening. It's too risky from a PR standpoint for the Sox front office.

[/ QUOTE ]

As bad as putting him on irrevocable waivers twice?

The red sox will take what they can for him. He is entering the most expensive years of his contract with the two least productive years expected.

Even getting nothing for him is +EV in thier eyes.

The only two teams that can take him are the NY teams, both for stupidity reasons (Mets) and conglomorate reasons (NYY).

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I absolutely agree. Everyone thinks Manny Ramirez and immediately thinks of all the bone-headed things he does, but the fact is, this guy is in a group with Barry Bonds, Frank Thomas and Alex Rodriguez as the best hitters of my generation. I'm probably forgetting a name, but I honestly can't think of anyone right now to join them (Pujols has a few more years to go). My only worry is that Manny will start getting injured more often, as was the case with Frank Thomas after he turned about 33. But my guess is Manny is too dumb to get injured.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love Manny, but getting 'rid' of him is wise from a business standpoint.

[cdxx]

[ QUOTE ]
uhh with the combination of how small fenway park is and how popular the sox are, they dont need manny to sell out at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe not, but i think he has at least something to do with it. also i think ortiz has just as much to do with it.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uhh with the combination of how small fenway park is and how popular the sox are, they dont need manny to sell out at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe not, but i think he has at least something to do with it. also i think ortiz has just as much to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, you're 100% wrong. Do I have to unedit my edited insulting post?

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
uhh with the combination of how small fenway park is and how popular the sox are, they dont need manny to sell out at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe not, but i think he has at least something to do with it. also i think ortiz has just as much to do with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

this does not reflect well on cornell at all. i guess thats the step down to a 2nd tier ivy: the students can't read.

[brettbrettr]

And so the Big Ten moves up a notch in your limited elitist worldview? Go Badgers.

[Victor]

i just wanted to remind you all that manny batted 7th in cleveland.

[technologic]

[ QUOTE ]
i just wanted to remind you all that manny batted 7th in cleveland.

[/ QUOTE ]

news flash, cleveland isn't in the playoffs

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
i just wanted to remind you all that manny batted 7th in cleveland.

[/ QUOTE ]

those teams were GOOT

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i just wanted to remind you all that manny batted 7th in cleveland.

[/ QUOTE ]

news flash, cleveland isn't in the playoffs

[/ QUOTE ]

what is your point here? seriously. is this thread about playoff baseball? is this thread about this year? is this cleveland team the same as the ones manny played on?

do you feel better about yourself and your yanks or sox (whichevery you like) now that you put another team down?

this thread is about manny and his career and how he stacks up all-time. i was simply pointing out something that most sox fans likely dont know. he did actually bat 7th on those cleveland teams. pretty amazing that one the best hitters ever actually batted 7th for some of his prime.

regardless, i hope you feel better about yourself and whatever team you root for.

[technologic]

[ QUOTE ]

what is your point here? seriously. is this thread about playoff baseball? is this thread about this year? is this cleveland team the same as the ones manny played on?


[/ QUOTE ]

what's the point of mentioning that manny batted 7th on the indians at one point in his career when the focus is on what manny's doing now?

[ QUOTE ]

do you feel better about yourself and your yanks or sox (whichevery you like) now that you put another team down?


[/ QUOTE ]

after all the trash talk from cleveland fans and how a small market team was going to oust the 200m payroll yankees, yea i like to dish out a little of my own.

[ QUOTE ]

this thread is about manny and his career and how he stacks up all-time. i was simply pointing out something that most sox fans likely dont know. he did actually bat 7th on those cleveland teams. pretty amazing that one the best hitters ever actually batted 7th for some of his prime.


[/ QUOTE ]

he didn't bat 7th cause he sucked. he batted 7th because thome and belle were in the lineup when he was rising up, and then he remained there for no good reason afterwards.

[ QUOTE ]

regardless, i hope you feel better about yourself and whatever team you root for.

[/ QUOTE ]

i thank you for your concerns for my feelings.

[Victor]

you are an idiot.

there is nothing else to say.

[technologic]

[ QUOTE ]
you are an idiot.

there is nothing else to say.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh. whatever.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
after all the trash talk from cleveland fans and how a small market team was going to oust the 200m payroll yankees, yea i like to dish out a little of my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

techno is right here. there was tons of trash directed at the yankees coming from indians fans when they were winning every game, what goes around comes around.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
after all the trash talk from cleveland fans and how a small market team was going to oust the 200m payroll yankees, yea i like to dish out a little of my own.

[/ QUOTE ]

techno is right here. there was tons of trash directed at the yankees coming from indians fans when they were winning every game, what goes around comes around.

[/ QUOTE ]

seriously wtf is your guys problem? how did this devolve into trash talk between indians and yankees fans? fwiw, please find one post where i was talkin trash. secondly, how can this statement "i just wanted to remind you all that manny batted 7th in cleveland. " have anything to do with talking trash to the yankees.

the comment in this thread was an interesting tidbit (i thought) about manny. the comments you guys have made are idiotic non sequitors and they are completely wrong.

thank you though, while i had no interest in the playoffs before at least you gave me a reason to root against the yanks. also, thank you for setting me straight on who the most idiotic insufferable fans are. all this time i thought it was the sox, glad that got cleared up.

[pokerdirty]

[ QUOTE ]
also, thank you for setting me straight on who the most idiotic insufferable fans are. all this time i thought it was the sox, glad that got cleared up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh no, it's still the sawks...

[SocialWelfareIV]

[ QUOTE ]

I love Manny, but getting 'rid' of him is wise from a business standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you want in return for Manny? I know that you said the red sox will take what they can get, but what do you want? And what are you willing to give up? Will you send cash in the deal? Prospects?

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I love Manny, but getting 'rid' of him is wise from a business standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you want in return for Manny? I know that you said the red sox will take what they can get, but what do you want? And what are you willing to give up? Will you send cash in the deal? Prospects?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure sublime just wants to get rid of his contract so they can pay other players. There's a reason he's been on waivers in the past.

[SocialWelfareIV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I love Manny, but getting 'rid' of him is wise from a business standpoint.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you want in return for Manny? I know that you said the red sox will take what they can get, but what do you want? And what are you willing to give up? Will you send cash in the deal? Prospects?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure sublime just wants to get rid of his contract so they can pay other players. There's a reason he's been on waivers in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you can't snap your fingers and make Manny go away. It's unlikely they put Manny on waivers again and even more unlikely that he's claimed. So players and/or money are going to have to move hands. And if you trade Manny and go after free agents, who are they?

With three years left on Manny's deal, it's not as large a burden as it was a couple years ago. Trading Manny creates a huge hole in the lineup. I just don't think getting rid of Manny by any means necessary is the no-brainer Sublime suggests it is.

[Voltron87]

i never said anything about manny batting 7th. i dont know what youre angry at me about that.

what i did say: "techno is right here. there was tons of trash directed at the yankees coming from indians fans"

i still dont see how that is untrue.

[sublime]

Well you can't snap your fingers and make Manny go away. It's unlikely they put Manny on waivers again and even more unlikely that he's claimed. So players and/or money are going to have to move hands. And if you trade Manny and go after free agents, who are they?

Why is it unlikey he be put on waivers? Also, why would it be unlikely he was claimed when the mets were willing to deal for him durign the season?

With three years left on Manny's deal, it's not as large a burden as it was a couple years ago. Trading Manny creates a huge hole in the lineup. I just don't think getting rid of Manny by any means necessary is the no-brainer Sublime suggests it is.

Its is though. He is entering the final (and most expensive) years of a contract and is expected to produde at the lowest level of the entire deal. Getting this contacrt off the books is just plain good business.

Of course, finding a replacement for mannys numbers are not easy, but he is a left fielder (and a below average one) not a shortstop or catcher.

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, finding a replacement for mannys numbers are not easy, but he is a left fielder (and a below average one) not a shortstop or catcher.

[/ QUOTE ]
finding a replacement for Manny in the lineup is basically impossible.

replacing our LF/1B combined numbers with a new LF/1B combo is not impossible,

[kenberman]

[ QUOTE ]
i never said anything about manny batting 7th. i dont know what youre angry at me about that.

what i did say: "techno is right here. there was tons of trash directed at the yankees coming from indians fans"

i still dont see how that is untrue.

[/ QUOTE ]

that may be true, but it wasn't coming from Victor. returning trash talking is fine and dandy, but it should be directed at an original trask-talker, not a bystander who happens to share allegiances.

[SocialWelfareIV]

[ QUOTE ]

Why is it unlikey he be put on waivers? Also, why would it be unlikely he was claimed when the mets were willing to deal for him durign the season?

With three years left on Manny's deal, it's not as large a burden as it was a couple years ago. Trading Manny creates a huge hole in the lineup. I just don't think getting rid of Manny by any means necessary is the no-brainer Sublime suggests it is.

Its is though. He is entering the final (and most expensive) years of a contract and is expected to produde at the lowest level of the entire deal. Getting this contacrt off the books is just plain good business.

Of course, finding a replacement for mannys numbers are not easy, but he is a left fielder (and a below average one) not a shortstop or catcher.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is unlikely that Manny be placed on waivers specifically because the Mets appear to have interest in Manny. Why give him away for free when you get something for him? Additionally, the Yankees are clearing a good bit of payroll this year I believe (Brown, Williams, Matsui is a free agent)...I don't think the Red Sox front office is going to be willing to risk seeing Manny playing for the Yanks next year. This would be a disaster for them.

You keep referring to these years as the most expensive years of Manny's contract. In fact, the opposite is true: Manny is being paide 19, 18, and 20 mill over the next three years, as opposed to 23.78 and 23.20 in 2004 and 2005.

But the most important issue is how you replace Manny. Manny is incredibly important to the Sox offense. There are only a handful of players that can replace Manny's numbers, and the Sox aren't getting most of them. The only guy that could even come close is Dunn, but sticking another lefty bat in that lineup is not a great idea. It's going to take multiple players to replace Manny.

But who are they? Maybe you can trade for a Beltran or a Delgado...maybe you sign Matsui. Quite frankly, those three options suck. So what players are you plugging in to take Manny's spot?

Having 20 mill to spend is great but you need players to spend it on.

[Voltron87]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i never said anything about manny batting 7th. i dont know what youre angry at me about that.

what i did say: "techno is right here. there was tons of trash directed at the yankees coming from indians fans"

i still dont see how that is untrue.

[/ QUOTE ]

that may be true, but it wasn't coming from Victor. returning trash talking is fine and dandy, but it should be directed at an original trask-talker, not a bystander who happens to share allegiances.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't talking trash to victor. one of the other yankee fans was, and i was just saying "to be fair there were a lot of indians fans being sort of obnoxious when the indians were on fire." i dont even remember who, i ignored most of them.

[technologic]

i was asked by victor if i felt better about myself putting the indians down, and i said yes, in fact, i did

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
It is unlikely that Manny be placed on waivers specifically because the Mets appear to have interest in Manny. Why give him away for free when you get something for him? Additionally, the Yankees are clearing a good bit of payroll this year I believe (Brown, Williams, Matsui is a free agent)...I don't think the Red Sox front office is going to be willing to risk seeing Manny playing for the Yanks next year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brown is done, Bernie will prob sign a very reduced deal to DH for a year or two, or retire, and Hideki will cost (although there's a miniscule chance he goes back to Japan). Yes, there's money coming off the books. I'm not sure the Yanks would want to spend it on a guy like Manny though, if they want to spend it at all.

[SocialWelfareIV]

[ QUOTE ]

Brown is done, Bernie will prob sign a very reduced deal to DH for a year or two, or retire, and Hideki will cost (although there's a miniscule chance he goes back to Japan). Yes, there's money coming off the books. I'm not sure the Yanks would want to spend it on a guy like Manny though, if they want to spend it at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the Yanks want to scale back their payroll significantly, Manny makes absolutely no sense for them. But can't you see the press release now? "Unlike the Red Sox, the Yankees are willing and will continue to use as much of our revenue as possible to field a World Series contender."