Live 20/40 w/ overs

[DcifrThs]

Im trying to remember how this hand went down but the game was a great live game at the ameristar in st.louis,

we were playing 6 or 7 handed and everybody at the table had over buttons except Mark Wilson (who you pool fanatics will know is one of the best pool players, period. 5 time national 9 ball champion, 3 time national 8 ball). he doesn't have an over button. Mark is the absolute definition of weak tight. he'll check down an overpair on an even remotely scary board, he plays like 1 hand per hour, even in this game where me and my friend winston are the ones laggig it up. so im in the 6 seat. my friend winston is in the 7 seat. Winston is an aspiring poker player. he played at the commerce alot when he lived there. he would be good but when he's down he plays very bad, and he's a little lag. ive showed him my pokertracker database and compared it with him to help him try to beat the 30 game so he really respects my play.

at this point the game is pretty tight and winston is doing well, he was down like 2 racks but got 90% of it back so he's doin ok.

to his left is a guy who plays tight and has won "52 out of 56" of his last sessions...great, thats how you record a win, good for you /images/graemlins/smile.gif ... to his left is a bad playing but tight preflop player...

so only mark is un-overed.

as its folded to me i look around and the sb, bb and mark dont look too excited.

I have 74ss and raise, winston 3 bets all fold i call.

flop is Kc9c2c. i check and call. at this point he looks slightly afraid of this flop and he would have bet more forcefully if he had a K or a club from the looks of it. i plan to c'r the turn and bet the river.

turn is 7d i check and raise his bet. he looks disgusted, thinks a while and calls,

river is 4. damn, i bet. my plan was to get him to fold, but now i want a CALL.

what do you say to get the call after you played it strongly enough to get a fold?

Barron

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

what do you say to get the call after you played it strongly enough to get a fold?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]


How he perceives you and your mannerisms is key to figuring out what you need to do in order to get him to do what you want and what he doesn't want.

Can you seem overly confident which would seem like a put-on job by a weak hand to get him to call...?

Or seem weak in order to make THAT a reverse tell as a strong hand projecting weakness when you're actually weak (but he won't know that you're strong).

Or go stone-cold frozen and seem like you're bluffing if that won't be too obvious.

Or tell him to fold already so you can get to the next hand.

Or call.

Or...

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[daryn]

say something like, "come on.. fold it ONE TIME"

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
what do you say to get the call after you played it strongly enough to get a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nothing at all. Hold your breath and stare at the board. Not sure if he knows anything about tells but anytime I play live and someone looks like that after a weird turn raise I call them down and win.

[lil feller]

I understand the reason for the move, but with nothing to fall back on in terms of your hand, isnt't this whole hand just spewage?

If you ended up getting a call it means he was calling to the river regardless, and the only way you had to win was catching runner runner, nice hit.

lf

[Turning Stone Pro]

Can shoot the eyes off the balls, but can't hold a candle to either DiLiberto or Incardona when it comes to commentating matches for Accu-stats. Wish he would hang it up.

TSP

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
Can shoot the eyes off the balls, but can't hold a candle to either DiLiberto or Incardona when it comes to commentating matches for Accu-stats. Wish he would hang it up.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

he's a quiet guy and when he told me he was going to vegas to commentate i was actually pretty surprised...

but he's a real nice guy and he's hosting a match tomorrow ...

tim meyers and myself will be playing a 9 game 9ball match w/ 5:4 weight (my 400 wins me 500). we'll adjust the line after that for subsequent games.

Barron

[daryn]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the reason for the move, but with nothing to fall back on in terms of your hand, isnt't this whole hand just spewage?

If you ended up getting a call it means he was calling to the river regardless, and the only way you had to win was catching runner runner, nice hit.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

good point

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand the reason for the move, but with nothing to fall back on in terms of your hand, isnt't this whole hand just spewage?

If you ended up getting a call it means he was calling to the river regardless, and the only way you had to win was catching runner runner, nice hit.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

good point

[/ QUOTE ]

thats the whole point.

i had a plan and a read.

but in the end, i wanted something other than was the intent of my plan and read.

how do i go about undoing it...

so here's what i did,

as i bet the river without flinching he was virtually beating me to the muck with his cards.

i said "winston, you gunna fold it this one time for me? how sweet of you" then he took a second look, and i tried to portray that this was a reverse reverse tell that i wanted him to fold so he should call...like i had the Ac.

he then hollywooded for a bit and i couldn't think of anything else that would pursuade him to call /images/graemlins/frown.gif so i put a chip on my cards and said, ok, i guess you'll be nice and did the ol turn in your cards thing. he then looked at his stack, looked at the cards in my hand and chucked his cards in the muck!

damn!

oh well, all i can say is that i tried...and he went from an instamuck, to a thoughtful muck...lol

Barron

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]

as i bet the river without flinching he was virtually beating me to the muck with his cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

[Me as other player at the table]: "Sweet, next hand."

[ QUOTE ]
i said "winston, you gunna fold it this one time for me? how sweet of you" then he took a second look, and i tried to portray that this was a reverse reverse tell that i wanted him to fold so he should call...like i had the Ac.

he then hollywooded for a bit and i couldn't think of anything else that would pursuade him to call /images/graemlins/frown.gif so i put a chip on my cards and said, ok, i guess you'll be nice and did the ol turn in your cards thing. he then looked at his stack, looked at the cards in my hand and chucked his cards in the muck!


[/ QUOTE ]

[Me as other player at table]: "Yes!, two WPT guys get to Hollywood back and forth over one limit poker bet, hopefully a staredown will ensue!"

[Ulysses]

The answer, btw, is flinch slightly (almost imperceptibly) as you start to bet the river, but then quickly switch that to a very assertive bet.

[daryn]

yeah, in retrospect any actual words you say are likely to make him muck even more. if he is halfway intelligent he will think "wtf.. i was just about to muck, and now he is talking all this [censored]... if he wanted me to muck why wouldn't he just shut up and let me"

just thought of that

[PatJ]

"I'm probably not bluffing"

[tomahawk]

I agree that you shouldnt say anything, just try to seem a little less assertive when you bet.

And btw I think this call is worth a lot less than 1bb as noone at the table will respect a thing you do from the moment you show that hand.

I think it's pretty close if you want the call or not, depending on your current image, your style of play and the perceptiveness of the other players.

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

And btw I think this call is worth a lot more than 1bb as noone at the table will respect a thing you do from the moment you show that hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


FYP.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[tomahawk]

You think so?

If I'm gonna play like this (and I often do, not hating) then I'd like it if people kept folding.

Of course if you hit a hot streak and make every hand it's a different story, but that doesn't happen all the time.

[BarronVangorToth]

Yes.

But he obviously has to change gears a bit as people will call him down and he will get more action than he would otherwise.

This works especially well in live games.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[tomahawk]

So you think the right play here would be to flip the hand over, and then tighten up considerably?

Hm, sounds more boring than continuing to lag it up, but sure it is a valid strategy. I just don't like showing my hands, thats all.

[BarronVangorToth]

I don't like showing my hands either in general.

And I wouldn't like the show here.

BUT ... if called .. I think it is more valuable than the 1BB, especially with a quality player like this one who is very likely to use his new image to his extreme advantage.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[Tommy Angelo]

"Winston is an aspiring poker player ... he's a little lag ... ive showed him my pokertracker database and compared it with him to help him ... I have 74ss and raise ..."

hmmm

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

hmmm

[/ QUOTE ]


C'mon, Tommy, 'fess up, you've raised with 74s, haven't you...?

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[andyfox]

And don't neatly stack the bet, throw all eight chips in in splayed fashion, almost splashing the pot.

[Whenever I hear the phrase "splashing the pot," I can't help think of Malkovich/KGB: "In my goame, I'll splash deh pawt, vhenever the fock I vohnt." /images/graemlins/smile.gif]

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

hmmm

[/ QUOTE ]


C'mon, Tommy, 'fess up, you've raised with 74s, haven't you...?

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

no. it was 74o playing against my Enon in vegas. so i'll hear NONE of it from tommy.

Barron

In that situation, if i want a call, i'm going to do one of two things....not say anything at all, or ask him what he has, something like this "what do you have (no pause inbetween these statements) you dont have a couple of queens do you?)

Also, take the chip off of your cards like you're ready to showdown.

but if he called the CR on the turn, it shouldnt be too hard to call a bet on the river.

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
but if he called the CR on the turn, it shouldnt be too hard to call a bet on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

if this were true i wouldn't have made the move in the first place.

Barron

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]

no. it was 74o playing against my Enon in vegas. so i'll hear NONE of it from tommy.


[/ QUOTE ]


Misinterpreted your post, my bad - thought 74ss was 74 spade-spade OR that you double-hit "s."

Yeah, with 74o I don't think you're getting the Tommy vote.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

what ended up happening?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

no. it was 74o playing against my Enon in vegas. so i'll hear NONE of it from tommy.


[/ QUOTE ]


Misinterpreted your post, my bad - thought 74ss was 74 spade-spade OR that you double-hit "s."

Yeah, with 74o I don't think you're getting the Tommy vote.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

[/ QUOTE ]

no, TOMMY raised with 74o in vegas!! vs. my friend.

Barron

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
what ended up happening?

[/ QUOTE ]

uh, thats why i put up a results post

Barron

[sthief09]

just to get things straight, you were screwing around right? you don't necessarily thing your flop and turn lines are best, you just care about the river?

[Tommy Angelo]

"C'mon, Tommy, 'fess up, you've raised with 74s, haven't you...?"

Of course. I've raised with every hand there is, many times, at limit and no-limit, including 72o.

I also used to drink shots of jack daniels at the poker table.

I also have smoked hundreds of thousands of cigarettes.

Just because I've done these things does not mean I think they are good ideas. If anything, it makes me something of an expert on certain types of bad ideas.

The happy ending is that somewhere along the way I got sane enough for long enough to quit the cigs, quit the whiskey, and quit the spazzy raises with squat cards. Life, love, and money are so much easier this way.

Tommy

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
just to get things straight, you were screwing around right? you don't necessarily thing your flop and turn lines are best, you just care about the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean this isn't standard for you?

Barron

[BarronVangorToth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just to get things straight, you were screwing around right? you don't necessarily thing your flop and turn lines are best, you just care about the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

you mean this isn't standard for you?

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]



See, that would've been a priceless response as the first one to this thread, when you went:



[ QUOTE ]
Im trying to remember how this hand went down but the game was a great live game at the ameristar in st.louis,

we were playing 6 or 7 handed and everybody at the table had over buttons except Mark Wilson (who you pool fanatics will know is one of the best pool players, period. 5 time national 9 ball champion, 3 time national 8 ball). he doesn't have an over button. Mark is the absolute definition of weak tight. he'll check down an overpair on an even remotely scary board, he plays like 1 hand per hour, even in this game where me and my friend winston are the ones laggig it up. so im in the 6 seat. my friend winston is in the 7 seat. Winston is an aspiring poker player. he played at the commerce alot when he lived there. he would be good but when he's down he plays very bad, and he's a little lag. ive showed him my pokertracker database and compared it with him to help him try to beat the 30 game so he really respects my play.

at this point the game is pretty tight and winston is doing well, he was down like 2 racks but got 90% of it back so he's doin ok.

to his left is a guy who plays tight and has won "52 out of 56" of his last sessions...great, thats how you record a win, good for you ... to his left is a bad playing but tight preflop player...

so only mark is un-overed.

as its folded to me i look around and the sb, bb and mark dont look too excited.

I have 74ss and raise, winston 3 bets all fold i call.

flop is Kc9c2c. i check and call. at this point he looks slightly afraid of this flop and he would have bet more forcefully if he had a K or a club from the looks of it. i plan to c'r the turn and bet the river.

turn is 7d i check and raise his bet. he looks disgusted, thinks a while and calls,

river is 4. damn, i bet. my plan was to get him to fold, but now i want a CALL.

what do you say to get the call after you played it strongly enough to get a fold?

Barron



[/ QUOTE ]



And he could've replied simply:

Standard.


Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com