PDA

View Full Version : Fluky two-pair from BB

10-03-2005, 08:25 AM
Typical 0.5/1 game and the players that come with it.

I am in BB and get dealt 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif .
Preflop action: Fold, Call, Fold, Call, Fold, Call, Fold, Call, SB Completes, Hero checks.

Flop: 3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 SB)
SB Check, Hero bets, Fold, Call, Call, Fold, SB Calls.

I've started betting out when I hit top pair on these crappy flops with no preflop raisers. The plan was to fold to a raise.

Turn: 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (4.5 BB)
SB Checks, Hero bets, Fold, Call, SB calls.

Again, I planned to fold to a raise which might have indicated a straight here. But no one raised.

River: T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (7.5 BB)
It's checked around.

Was this river a valuebet opp or a trap?
lautzutao
10-03-2005, 08:31 AM
I don't like the flopbet, and I don't like the check on the river.

Why are you wasting a bet on the flop if you're just going to auto-muck it to a raise?

Turn bet is obvious...

River needs to be value bet. You're afraid of A4 46? They would have opened up on the turn I hope, and certainly wouldn't have checked around the river.
thesharpie
10-03-2005, 08:31 AM
Bet the river, and stop thinking you can get away from the hand if someone raises everytime you bet, I used to have this problem, it's a raise or fold mentality and makes your AF too high. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
imported_The Vibesman
10-03-2005, 08:37 AM
Bet the river. What exactly were you afraid of?
lautzutao
10-03-2005, 08:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river, and stop thinking you can get away from the hand if someone raises everytime you bet, I used to have this problem, it's a raise or fold mentality and makes your AF too high. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you betting this flop?
thesharpie
10-03-2005, 09:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river, and stop thinking you can get away from the hand if someone raises everytime you bet, I used to have this problem, it's a raise or fold mentality and makes your AF too high. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. We have the (current) best hand here often.
imported_The Vibesman
10-03-2005, 09:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river, and stop thinking you can get away from the hand if someone raises everytime you bet, I used to have this problem, it's a raise or fold mentality and makes your AF too high. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you betting this flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. We have the (current) best hand here often.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am also betting the flop.
lautzutao
10-03-2005, 09:36 AM
Isn't this one of those situations thought that the edge we might have is so insignificant on the field that it might be worthwhile to wait for the turn? I mean we have quite a few people in this hand and we aren't exactly staring at a monster here.
imported_The Vibesman
10-03-2005, 09:43 AM
I will often use this reasoning to wait to raise, but not to wait to bet. I don't want this getting checked through to give backdoor str8/flush draws a chance to pick up a strong draw on the turn, and I don't want to give overcards a free look either. It's a reasonable ragged board, except for the weak str8 draw, so many of our opponents may have whiffed completely and be perfectly happy to drop their hands.
OrianasDaad
10-03-2005, 09:46 AM
Grunch

I don't like leading out on this flop. I don't think your hand will hold up enough in this situation. You'll be dominated some of the time, and you'll get beat by other weird hands that make straights.

Unless SB is incredibly passive, I think this is a fairly solid value bet. A set usually doesn't check each street, and the only two straights are A4 and 64. If any card lower than a 9 came rivered, or any card that paired the board, I'd check-call.
OrianasDaad
10-03-2005, 09:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Bet the river, and stop thinking you can get away from the hand if someone raises everytime you bet, I used to have this problem, it's a raise or fold mentality and makes your AF too high. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising and/or folding are often both far superior to just calling.

Maxims like "I'm planning on folding to a raise." aren't very worthwhile. Know what a raise or a call means from your opponent, and then you'll know what your best course of action is.
TripleH68
10-03-2005, 10:13 AM
Value bet the river.

Betting every street here has to be the correct play. The flop had no obvious draws other than gutshots or one pairs - and you have TP.
MN_Mime
10-03-2005, 10:25 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Betting every street here has to be the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]
10-03-2005, 10:27 AM
If this is a typical .50/1.00 game, you must value bet that river. You will get called many times with all kinds of lower pairs and on occasion an ace high.
POKhER
10-03-2005, 10:36 AM
check the flop.
Value bet river.

Side note - IN SSH theres a good 9Top pair example where he doesnt bet, I forget the page but reverse domination and all that comes into play.... So many cards can whop your ass. hey even a 9x draws or beats you on the flop
Edge34
10-03-2005, 10:41 AM
In a typical .5/1 game, I'm betting this flop almost every time. Actually, I can't think of too many situations where I'm not.

I do agree, the river is a fairly easy bet, there's not many logical hands that beat you.
POKhER
10-03-2005, 10:48 AM
what if im SB and i hold 96s and im a typical passive call down fish?

nah i check this.
Edge34
10-03-2005, 10:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
what if im SB and i hold 96s and im a typical passive call down fish?

nah i check this.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what if the SB flopped a set and is a passive calldown fish. Yeah, its somewhat possible that you're beaten, but not entirely likely. You're betting the flop because there's a good chance that you're ahead. Of course you're never 100% certain, but you bet to get money in when you're probably ahead, and to drive out drawing hands, or at least make them pay.

I don't know how much you lose checking this flop, and it might not be much, but the bet seems like the play here. Can't play scared of the worst all the time.
DCWildcat
10-03-2005, 10:55 AM
Since you have one of the nines, the probability that none of your 6 villains, given random hands, have a 9 is 50.41% (Super System).

I think you should bet this. It sucks that's you're up against 6 other players, but that is largely mitigated by a very weak board. You have a decent equity edge in a reasonable pot. Bet every street (the river is much more clear).
POKhER
10-03-2005, 11:09 AM
They are getting 7:1 on there call, i dont see many folding. specially "typical" players.

I'd say this is a major case of reverse domination and betting the flop is a waste of 1SB.
Aaron W.
10-03-2005, 11:27 AM
I don't bet this flop with four players still to act. I check and see what develops. Your hand, even if it's best, is not very strong. The 9-high top pair isn't as good as a J-high top pair for reasons *OTHER* than J > 9. There are more ways for your 92 to be dominated than if you had J2. Mildly discriminating players hold hands like A9-96 and hands like AJ-J8. This hand should be played with a fair amount of caution.

OP: You shouldn't plan to fold so much. Folding to a flop raise is bad because you have two-pair outs and a reasonably sized pot. Folding on the turn because you think someone hit a straight is MUBS.
Weatherhead03
10-03-2005, 01:48 PM
Its not a waste of a SB at all. This flop is almost a must bet. You very well could have the best hand and you do not want anyone to draw to their gutshot or backdoor flush for free. For the times that you are behind you make it up plus a lot more for the times that people call with their overcards and gutshots.

As for river. Value bet. You are ahead a lot here.
Catsailor
10-03-2005, 03:34 PM
Grunch 2-
In BB with this many to act behind you I would ck with the hope of late bettor so I can raise to cut crap holders.
" The plan was to fold to a raise" Grow some Cohones. No offense intended but what are you afraid of here. Think and act positively or you will soon be gone.
Turn: Top and bottom pair. You have the best hand! Get out there and bet. Plan to WIN not fold. Make other ppl scared of you. This doesn't mean to disregard others aggression or not be aware of poss. slowplayers, but what are you waiting for?
Riv; If no one showed anything by now, do not assume the worst. Value bet!!
But I could be wrong(I'm not)Good Luck
Cat
10-03-2005, 05:04 PM
This is how you make money in micros. Bet the river.
10-03-2005, 05:19 PM
I would check raise this flop 90% of the time.
The 10% I don't, is when it's checked around or it's 2 back to me. This is my standard line for TPWK<T.

The river is a very clear bet.
Disconnected
10-03-2005, 09:16 PM
I'd check, and see what happens behind me. Your hand is pretty marginal and the pot is not that big; your reverse implied odds are not so good.

The way it went down, you should bet the turn and river. If someone was trapping with a strong hand, so be it, but you're letting too much value go by if you don't bet it.