ducks on the button... what's your play?

[JPaps18]

Late in a $20 MTT on Stars. 31 left of 954, 81 paid so already into the money. Next bump is at 27 from $76 to $104. Average is ~35k, i forget exactly, so I'm a little below it. I have gotten AQ twice in the last orbit pushed and got no callers. I have also used position to pick up a few blinds and bb is aware of this(he has played back at me)I am dealt 22 on the button and everyone folds to me. How would you go about playing a small pp in this position with all relative information? Limp? Raise? All-in? Fold?

Since I had pushed twice and hadn't showed down I decided to just raise and see what happened. Even if the raise was wrong in the first place, what do you do once you're reraised all-in against a bb you know is able to make a play back at you? Is 18k enough to fold and make an attempt to win at this blind level (1500/3000)? Or did I commit myself with my original raise?

Small PP's late in tournaments seem to be a big leak for me so any general comments on playing small PP's or specific comments on the hand itself are welcome. Thanks, JPaps18.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (8 handed) converter

SB (t43695)
BB (t44655)
UTG (t44596)
UTG+1 (t30454)
MP1 (t42845)
MP2 (t69057)
CO (t3839)
Hero (t27186)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
5 folds, Hero raises to t9000, 1 fold, BB raises to t44505, Hero calls t18036 (All-In).


Final Pot: t72441

[Exitonly]

that's what the 10bb rule is all about... when you make a 3x bb raise w/ less than 10bb, you commit yourself to a push...

so yea oncee you raise you gotta call, but i would have pushed, don't let that guy think he has any fold equity over you.

plus w/ antes in there that's a nice sized pot already.

Well I guess the question here is, are you looking just to make the next payout cut or do you want to win this thing?

You could probably fold your way to the next payout level but at that point you're crippled and have literally killed your chances of a final table finish. Push here and hope to either pick up the blinds or get a caller that can double you up when you hit a set or your deuces hold up versus some overcards. I think it's worth a gamble here as you either take the cautious route to win another $32 or you take an aggressive line to win the big prize.

I'm in it to win it - hero pushes this one.

[fnurt]

Definite push.

I would definatly push here.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
that's what the 10bb rule is all about... when you make a 3x bb raise w/ less than 10bb, you commit yourself to a push...

so yea oncee you raise you gotta call, but i would have pushed, don't let that guy think he has any fold equity over you.

plus w/ antes in there that's a nice sized pot already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is definatly push or fold country, you don't have enough to just raise. I push and hope nobody calls.

[Hickboy]

Folding here would be terrible. push.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
Late in a $20 MTT on Stars. 31 left of 954, 81 paid so already into the money. Next bump is at 27 from $76 to $104. Average is ~35k, i forget exactly, so I'm a little below it. I have gotten AQ twice in the last orbit pushed and got no callers. I have also used position to pick up a few blinds and bb is aware of this(he has played back at me)I am dealt 22 on the button and everyone folds to me. How would you go about playing a small pp in this position with all relative information? Limp? Raise? All-in? Fold?

Since I had pushed twice and hadn't showed down I decided to just raise and see what happened. Even if the raise was wrong in the first place, what do you do once you're reraised all-in against a bb you know is able to make a play back at you? Is 18k enough to fold and make an attempt to win at this blind level (1500/3000)? Or did I commit myself with my original raise?

Small PP's late in tournaments seem to be a big leak for me so any general comments on playing small PP's or specific comments on the hand itself are welcome. Thanks, JPaps18.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you're saying is, in a hand where you wanted to make a move, didn't mind going all-in, but didn't really want a call, you raised less than all-in against an opponent you knew was waiting to play back at you?

Why would you do that? Why did you need to "see what happened"? Didn't you know that this is what would happen? Why would you deliberately put yourself in a difficult situation?

The reason you raise all in here is so your opponent has no ideas about being able to make you fold! You don't really want a call, since you're racing against just about any other hand (unless he has a pair above you, in which case you were going to bust anyway). But you want the blinds and antes, you are willing to take a race if he wants to gamble, since you're short.

Sorry if my tone is a little harsh, but I've run into posts like these, where someone decides to vary a play for the hell of it without thinking about what the results might be or what they will do at a future stage of the hand, and as a result they get stuck in a difficult spot, because they've proceeded without considering what might happen next.

I'll end with two quotes from HOH2 that I think sum up how to play a hand like this:
"When you have a medium-strength hand, there is a strong argument to be made for ending the hand quickly."
"Train yourself to look for plays that make future decisions easy."

(OK, since I've laid into you a little, I should answer your question: I'd call in your spot, but I'd hate it which is why I go all-in in the first place. In general, my small pairs strategy in the late stages is to usually play them strongly first in -- although if i am a medium stack in early position I may just let them go. A small stack I am more inclined to push, and as a big stack I'm happy to use my leverage to pressure everyone else, and I don't mind taking a flip with a short stack.)

[ansky451]

I'd probably push here with 12 bbs even.

Puuuuuuuush.

If you're going to raise with this hand you'll be committed to call so you might as well push and fold out some hands that may be tempted to play back at you. Especially when you know the BB is getting ready to do exactly that.

I don't like just folding this as you have a hand that is only dominated by a bigger pair and only two players to get by.

However, I wouldn't be against a flat call here. While you're already in the money and looking to build a stack I hate going bust with ducks when my opponnent looks down and sees a pair. My arguements for a limp even though they will probably get shot down in favor of a push:

1) It looks very suspicious.(Doesn't sound like you've limped from the button when folded to before). The BBs been looking to play back at you and now all of a sudden you hand it to him. I think this would slow many people down.

2)Also if you limp since it looks suspicious the big blind may decide to play a flop since he can now check for free. While your raise forces him to a decision of folding or putting you all in. He probably knows that just calling your raise is the worst play and if he has any hand and has been looking to play back at you pushing is probably the outcome. So limping may give you a chance to hit a set and if you miss and he bets you can easily fold figuring he hit it. If he checks and you bet he may fold now that he's missed the flop. If he reraises after checking you'll probably have to lay it down.

3)If you limp and he still decides to push you can fold your 2s since you know at best you are a coinflip. This way you are still not crippled from losing 1 BB. While you may fold out a lot of hands that will put you in I think he may reconsider with all but his best hands considering your strange limp.

If you hadn't stolen his blinds in a while I would push but since you know he's gunning for you I hate to push with 2s when you know he's looking to take a shot at you.

If you were in EP with a big stack, how would you guys play this hand? Raise 3xBBs or 5xBB or push? Say there is another stack yet to act which has you covered.

fold it.

[DyessMan89]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
that's what the 10bb rule is all about... when you make a 3x bb raise w/ less than 10bb, you commit yourself to a push...

so yea oncee you raise you gotta call, but i would have pushed, don't let that guy think he has any fold equity over you.

plus w/ antes in there that's a nice sized pot already.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this is definatly push or fold country, you don't have enough to just raise. I push and hope nobody calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
If you were in EP with a big stack, how would you guys play this hand? Raise 3xBBs or 5xBB or push? Say there is another stack yet to act which has you covered.

[/ QUOTE ]

That depends-- how big is big? Size relative to the blinds and other stacks at the table is important. Stage of the tournament is important, too, as well as how the table has been playing.
If you give me more specific information I can come up with an answer. But without that all I can say is: mostly raise, call a push from a short stack getting good odds, don't tangle with the big stack if he decides to play, occasionally just fold if I think the circumstances aren't right... it's hard to say without more specific information.

[flyingmoose]

Here's a fun question: what range are you pushing in hero's position?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like just folding this as you have a hand that is only dominated by a bigger pair and only two players to get by.

However, I wouldn't be against a flat call here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line because you have already pushed twice this orbit and even calling a push is alot more likely from the BB. I think your FE is very very low.

[C-Dog]

It's pretty clear that I am in teh minority here, but I would just fold this one. Since you had pushed consecutive hands previously you are more likely to get a call. If you get called, you are either slightly ahead, or way behind. I would wait.

If you do raise though, you have to go all in, like someone said you dont want the BB to think they can get you to fold Gotta show em you mean business.

C-Dog

[JPaps18]

I agree that raising was the wrong play, it was late and wasn't the best decison but I guess my real question is... is it really that weak/tight to fold 22 in the spot? If i get called at BEST i'm 50/50 otherwise i'm 80/20 dog. Is 12 bb too low where you should be happy to get it in 50/50? What if you have 15x bb? do you still push here? 20? If you just raise and are put all in then what?

Just asking hypothetical situations here because I dont seem to play small pp's well.

[C-Dog]

I think the key to this hand for me, is that you had already raised a few times this round. It makes people a lot more likely to call you with weak holdings. If you had not already raised it up, then I would move it in, hoping to not get called.

C-Dog

[fnurt]

For the folders, assign a calling range to the blinds, and run it through pokerstove. I bet you'll find a push is still +EV.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that raising was the wrong play, it was late and wasn't the best decison but I guess my real question is... is it really that weak/tight to fold 22 in the spot? If i get called at BEST i'm 50/50 otherwise i'm 80/20 dog. Is 12 bb too low where you should be happy to get it in 50/50? What if you have 15x bb? do you still push here? 20? If you just raise and are put all in then what?

Just asking hypothetical situations here because I dont seem to play small pp's well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think M is more important than BB. I'm not sure what the antes are at this point but I figure any reasonable ante puts your M below 5 so push is push.

The thing is, just because you've been open pushing a lot doesn't mean people are going to spite call you with worse hands for a significant chunk of their stack. Do not underestimate the value of folding equity! You are only 50-50 if called; your FE (which is significant, since either blind would have to call off about 2/3 of his stack to call you) gives the play a higher positive expectation than that.

[AceofSpades]

I could find a fold here. Seems like you can find a better spot than 50/50 or possibly 20/80 here. Plus the third push in a row tends to get called a lot.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
I could find a fold here. Seems like you can find a better spot than 50/50 or possibly 20/80 here. Plus the third push in a row tends to get called a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a more accurate thing to say is that "the third push in a row expands your opponents' calling ranges." What you should keep in mind is that

-your opponents would still have to call off 60% of their stacks to pick you off. Most players don't want to do that without a pretty solid holding.
-you have only two opponents, and there's still a very good chance neither one has a hand in their calling range. Figure a calling range, your equity against it, and what the chances are opponent has a hand to call you. I think you'll find the move is +EV, though I don't have the means or inclination to do the exact math.

[C-Dog]

I think on an individual basis, the hand is +EV, but the chance of getting into a coinflip and busting out of the whole tourney still isn't worth it to me. I just think you can find a better spot than this.

C-Dog

[fnurt]

[ QUOTE ]
I think on an individual basis, the hand is +EV, but the chance of getting into a coinflip and busting out of the whole tourney still isn't worth it to me. I just think you can find a better spot than this.

C-Dog

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably one of the most common misconceptions on 2+2.

Shortstacked with an M of 5, you should love a +EV chance to double up, or even a neutral EV chance. The idea is to double yourself into a competitive position now, not play the game of trying to steal the blinds once per orbit while you wait for the AA fairy to arrive.

Once you have a competitive stack you can be choosier about picking your spots, but with a short stack your only goal should be to make it competitive as soon as possible.

Finally, you're not exactly calling an all-in here. Your chance of busting on this hand is probably 15% tops. Sure, you are putting all your chips at risk, but that's going to happen whenever you raise. First to act, on the button, with a pocket pair, is not a situation you can just pull out of your hat whenever you need it.