Set meets resistance in huge pot.

[Cumulonimbus]

No reads. Can anybody find a fold?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Nimbus is MP1 with 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $2.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Nimbus calls, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Nimbus calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, Nimbus calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Nimbus calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (14 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Nimbus raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 caps</font>, Nimbus calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (36 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, Nimbus calls, MP2 calls, SB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 40 BB

[Bob T.]

Can anybody find a fold?


I don't think so. If they can, they probably don't understand limit holdem. On the turn, if you are up against a straight, you probably have ten outs to win. (That's more outs than if you had a flush draw, and you usually don't fold flush draws on the turn in limit holdem, either). The only real problem is if you are up against a higher set. But sometimes you are up against a lower set, and its his problem.

On the river, you have a set, the pot is big, and you are faced with one bet. You just don't fold here either. You will get shown two pair often enough, that you might be posting some of those hands asking if you have a value raise on the river.

[Cumulonimbus]

Sweet. Thanks. I just get a cold feeling when my set is calling two cold on the capped turn.

[Nick C]

SB is a concern, partly because he may be eating up some of your boat outs if you're drawing. Meanwhile, UTG+2's line is weird, but in a pot this multiway he could be playing like this with a few different hands without actually being insane, and on the turn you beat some of those hands and have a good draw against others. (Plus, we don't know for certain that he's not insane.)

The river card is not encouraging, since you now lose to any random 6 and any flopped flush draw, in addition to JT and bigger sets.

But I'm not folding a set for one more bet in a pot this huge.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

Nice game selection.

Where did you find that table? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Before the river I don't fold a set which could be the best hand and has 10 outs if somebody has a straight. And on the river I'm not folding in such an enormous pot.

[imported_PP123]

I think you played this one perfectly. You can't fold anywhere in this monster pot. On the turn you have ten outs to full house or better AND you can very well have the best hand. The river card is terrible for your hand, but you can't fold in this gigantic pot. Going for overcalls is the correct play with all those players behind you.

[Fillamoore]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anybody find a fold?


I don't think so. If they can, they probably don't understand limit holdem. On the turn, if you are up against a straight, you probably have ten outs to win. (That's more outs than if you had a flush draw, and you usually don't fold flush draws on the turn in limit holdem, either). The only real problem is if you are up against a higher set. But sometimes you are up against a lower set, and its his problem.

On the river, you have a set, the pot is big, and you are faced with one bet. You just don't fold here either. You will get shown two pair often enough, that you might be posting some of those hands asking if you have a value raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not even close given the action and the board. Theres a 4 card straight and now 3 to a flush and all he has is mid set. I agree, a set is huge in MOST cases, here, its marginal at best. The turn call is fine given you have a few outs to a boat (i doubt at this point you have even 10, you're probably lookin at best 8 as another set is most likely out there). With a non diamond river, i call in a heart beat. With a diamond now on board, i seriously doubt you even win in this spot more than 1% of the time, and you need to be winning 1 in 40, which you're not. I fold river with a sick feeling in my gut and throw something, but relishing the fact i was good enough to save a BB. No way you're good here. Bob understands LHE from the sounds of it, and probably to a very good extent, but in this case, there's no way a call can be correct.

I must be missing something here - this looks like an easy fold on the flop to me. You have third pair plus a backdoor straight draw that may well end up splitting the pot (you have to discount the backdoor flush draw with only the 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif of course). You need 22:1 to hit a set on the turn. You're getting 17:1 when it's up to you and it's likely to be raised behind you. Fold.

[bungyrocks]

I'm folding the flop against 8 players and this draw heavy board.

[MrEngenic]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ] I don't think so. If they can, they probably don't understand limit holdem

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand limit holdem, and I find this a very easy fold on the flop with only 2 outs and the possibility of a raise behind me.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Can anybody find a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. I know that 17-to-1 looks great but,

-you're not closing the action
-there's no way that you've actually got 2 full outs
-there's a good chance that hitting your set will make a second best hand

[Bob T.]

Yeah, I missed that. I fold the flop. I still pay one bet on the river with my set.

[B Dids]

This pot is just too effing huge to fold. I feel dirty, but I'm calling on this river with sorrow in my heart.

Does anybody want to raise on the flop, I kinda do.

[Bob T.]

I fold river with a sick feeling in my gut and throw something, but relishing the fact i was good enough to save a BB.

If I fold, and my hand was good. I won't be throwing anything, unless its after I break it. Then I'll have to turn off my computer because I'll be so tilted that I won't be able to play without serious bankroll danger. So I'll have to have a couple of drinks because I won't be able to sleep otherwise. Between the chances that my hand is good, and the consequences of folding in that case, I think I have to call in this huge pot.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]

No reads. Can anybody find a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

On the flop, yes.

[Cumulonimbus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can anybody find a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. I know that 17-to-1 looks great but,

-you're not closing the action
-there's no way that you've actually got 2 full outs
-there's a good chance that hitting your set will make a second best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I called the flop with not only my 2 outs, but with my backdoor straight draw outs. If that 8 and 9 wasn't out there, I'd be folding it. I still call this flop.

[Fillamoore]

[ QUOTE ]
This pot is just too effing huge to fold. I feel dirty, but I'm calling on this river with sorrow in my heart.

Does anybody want to raise on the flop, I kinda do.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is just chip spewing in my opinion. Theres no hand to protect, you're not going to get anyone to lay down a better hand, and there are WAY to many cards that can come to kill your hand. Raising here would just be completely overplaying it imho.
As for folding the flop...thats where this hand went wrong. A fold there is definitely the right move, nothing else. I can definitely see a call having some warrant to it on the river, but i honestly feel its a negative EV play given all the action and that many players. I think making folds like this are what determine the winners from the big winners.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
but in this case, there's no way a call can be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

If nobody overcalls, Hero only has to be good 1 time in 37 to make this call correct. Or about 2.5% of the time.

You guys have it covered; my vote is for the flop fold.

I will point out that you cannot fold the turn whatsoever. If you didn't like that turn card, you must realize that earlier.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Can anybody find a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
Fold the flop. I know that 17-to-1 looks great but,

-you're not closing the action
-there's no way that you've actually got 2 full outs
-there's a good chance that hitting your set will make a second best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I called the flop with not only my 2 outs, but with my backdoor straight draw outs. If that 8 and 9 wasn't out there, I'd be folding it. I still call this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your set outs put three to a straight on the board against 8 opponents. Even if you treat your 2 outs as completely clean and include the backdoor straight draw (about 1.5 outs) you need 12.5:1. Sure, you're getting 17:1 immediately, but if it's raised behind you (which, let's face it, is pretty likely in this huge pot) you'll only be getting 11:1 or so. And this is the best case scenario remember.

Problem with the flop call is you were not in a good position to make it.

True, you had better than 11-1 odds to call 1 bet (hoping for a 7 on the turn) but a raise behind you seemed pretty likely to happen - and it did.

Add to that the fact that the 7 could give someone a straight (or at least a straight draw), this probably means 11-1 isn't even enough.

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]


Does anybody want to raise on the flop, I kinda do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I want to fold the flop. Raising is absurd.

[ErrantNight]

what's wrong with chucking this on the flop?

[jskills]

Folding on the flop makes sense. You're up against two overcards and a 4 flush.

You need to hit your set on the flop or fold with hands like these when overcards flop.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I think making folds like this are what determine the winners from the big winners.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with your statement. But I think we probably disagree on which group folding puts you into.

40BBs is 2000 hands worth of profit. Folding a set in a 40BB pot for 1 bet is insane.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
Your set outs put three to a straight on the board against 8 opponents. Even if you treat your 2 outs as completely clean and include the backdoor straight draw (about 1.5 outs) you need 12.5:1. Sure, you're getting 17:1 immediately, but if it's raised behind you (which, let's face it, is pretty likely in this huge pot) you'll only be getting 11:1 or so. And this is the best case scenario remember.

[/ QUOTE ]
You can't give yourself 2 full outs for your 7. And you especially can't give yourself 1.5 full outs for the BDSD - almost half the time you make your straight a possible flush will be on board, and 1/3 of the time you make your straight someone with a lone Q is beating you. On top of that, drawing one card to a BDSD has reverse implied odds since you'll be forced to put in bets on the flop and turn but you won't be able to collect much on the river.

Given the number of players in the hand, hero is being optimistic if he gives himself 2 full outs.