Ducks in the blind [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

droolie

10-03-2005, 01:05 AM

Everyone was tight passive except me, I was tight and virginal.

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises,1 fold, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP2 calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

DCWildcat

10-03-2005, 01:06 AM

What bit are you worried about here? Seems standard all around.

Duerig

10-03-2005, 01:07 AM

I think the only close part of the hand is the flop call. But I think you easily have the implied odds to see the turn.

MrWookie47

10-03-2005, 01:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What bit are you worried about here? Seems standard all around.

[/ QUOTE ]

milesdyson

10-03-2005, 01:15 AM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Redd

10-03-2005, 01:16 AM

Why does it say there's 2 players in on the turn? And did UTG+1 go all-in? Looks standard to me my micro brutha.

SCfuji

10-03-2005, 01:32 AM

lolol owned him. nice gutshot fish! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Eeegah

10-03-2005, 01:34 AM

Out of curiosity, how many outs would we assign to our 2-high BDFD here?

DCWildcat

10-03-2005, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, how many outs would we assign to our 2-high BDFD here?

[/ QUOTE ]

-3.14

shadow29

10-03-2005, 01:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, how many outs would we assign to our 2-high BDFD here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Half an out? So insignificant that I'm not really thinking about it.

DCWildcat

10-03-2005, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, how many outs would we assign to our 2-high BDFD here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Half an out? So insignificant that I'm not really thinking about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

-3.14, -2.89 at most you [censored] imbecile

MrWookie47

10-03-2005, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Out of curiosity, how many outs would we assign to our 2-high BDFD here?

[/ QUOTE ]

About as many outs as I'm giving to our BDSFD.

Student Caine

10-03-2005, 02:16 AM

Preflop: Assuming that the BB sticks around we are getting 11:1 on our completion, so this is an easy call.

Flop: Am I stupid or did the converter short the pot 2SB? Either way, you are getting a minimum of 10:1 to call on your gutshot. Even if we discount the gutshot (because of the /images/graemlins/spade.gif) we are still getting the implied odds to call here (assuming that if we hit and just have one caller on the last two streets, we will win the 10 SB + 2 SB (1BB on the Turn) + 2 SB (1 BB on the River) = 14 SB giving us 14:1 here).

Turn: We get the card we want, so we put in as many bets as we can. Pretty straight forward.

River: Pretty straight forward here as well. I don't think that we can fear the backdoor flush or the full house enough not to put in a value bet. Even if MP2 raises here I think that the pot is too big to fold, so our line here should be bet/call imo.

SCfuji

10-03-2005, 02:26 AM

dont forget our 2 outs for bottom set baby. none of these tools are gonna be carrying a five so id count them as clean outs. but whatever. hero won so he must have made the right plays, right?

SavageMiser

10-03-2005, 06:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Assuming that the BB sticks around we are getting 11:1 on our completion, so this is an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm? 1.5 bets before any action, UTG+1 adds 2, MP2 adds 2, CO adds 2 now it's your action. There's 7.5 in the pot now with maybe an extra 1 from the BB, so let's say 8.5, and it will cost you -- the SB -- 1.5 bets to call. That's 8.5-to-1.5 or less than 6-to-1.

TennesseeKid

10-03-2005, 06:48 AM

Yeah, I thought I was the only one seeing it and I made a math mistake.

POKhER

10-03-2005, 08:01 AM

You just won a huge pot or got sucked out by K/images/graemlins/heart.gif2/images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Student Caine

10-03-2005, 01:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Assuming that the BB sticks around we are getting 11:1 on our completion, so this is an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm? 1.5 bets before any action, UTG+1 adds 2, MP2 adds 2, CO adds 2 now it's your action. There's 7.5 in the pot now with maybe an extra 1 from the BB, so let's say 8.5, and it will cost you -- the SB -- 1.5 bets to call. That's 8.5-to-1.5 or less than 6-to-1.

[/ QUOTE ]

ACK! I totally blew the math there (that's what I get for grunching while 1/2 asleep /images/graemlins/tongue.gif). For some reason I counted it as 3/4 of a bet instead of 1.5?! Sorry about that one and thank you very much for pointing it out.

So let me ask this then...and this was going to be my original Pre-flop question, until I did my gorilla math and somehow manufactured 11:1 odds...Does anyone fold this preflop?

Student Caine

10-03-2005, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
dont forget our 2 outs for bottom set baby. none of these tools are gonna be carrying a five so id count them as clean outs. but whatever. hero won so he must have made the right plays, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

True...I did forget the set outs, and even if we want to discount it to 1 out, it does need to be considered. Wow, I really was brain dead when I posted last night.

I'm not quite sure what the second part of your post means (I mean, I understand the words, just not sure if I am missing some hidden, sarcastic meaning).

Student Caine

10-03-2005, 01:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I thought I was the only one seeing it and I made a math mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good rule of thumb when viewing my posts is that if it looks like I just said something really stupid, I probably did. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Absolution

10-03-2005, 01:57 PM

Standard. What's the problem?

droolie

10-03-2005, 02:21 PM

I'm glad so many of you found this hand so uninteresting. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

I posted it because I really liked the way it went down and was hoping it would spark a little interest from our newer forum members.

Many of the tighter players might fold this pf. This is something I hope we all realize is a mistake. However what do you do if:
A: MP2 calls and CO raises?
B: MP2 folds and CO calls?
C: MP2 folds and CO raises?

On the flop calling is clearly correct. I doubt anybody would be tempted to fold here. What do you do if:

D: BB raised instead of folded?

On the turn raising seems obvious but does anybody call the raise to try to keep UTG+1 around?

What's your move on the river if MP2 caps the turn?

Student Caine

10-03-2005, 03:02 PM

Let's see if I can redeem myself mathematically.

A: MP2 calls and CO raises
So we will have 2 scenarios here...in both of them I am going to assume that BB now folds rather than calls:

1) Noone Caps the Betting.
So here we will wind up paying 2.5 SB while the others will contribute a total of 10 SB (3 from UTG+1, 3 from MP2, 3 from CO, 1 from BB). So here we are getting 4:1.

2) Someone Caps the Betting
So here we will wind up paying 3.5 SB while the others contribute 13 SB (4 from UTG+1, 4 from MP2, 4 from CO, 1 from BB). So we are getting ~3.7:1.

So we need to get 7:1 implied odds for our set. This means that in Scenario 1 we would need to win 17.5 SB (8.75 BB) and in Scenario 2 we would need to win 24.5 SB (12.25 BB). The pot already contains 10 SB (5 BB) and 13 SB (6.5 BB) resepectively. So in one case we need to gain 4 BB and in the other we need to gain 6 BB. Given the 3 other players in the pot and the fact that we should see some decent action on the flop (at least) I think that we can easily squeeze out the 4 BB and maybe get our 6 BB (obviously we are looking at the money that the other players will be putting in as we cannot count money that we put in and then win back as profit in this instance). I think that I call here and hope it doesn't cap (but I certainly call if it does). Have I overestimated our chances to get 7:1 implied odds with this many people in the pot?

B: MP2 folds and CO calls
So here I will assume that BB, facing only 1 additional bet will call. This means that we are putting in 1.5 (not .75! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) SB and the others are contributing 6 SB ( 2 from UTG+1, 2 from CO, 2 from BB). So we are getting 4:1 here as well. This time we need to get to 14 SB (7 BB) to make our implied odds work for our set. The pot already contains 3 BB so with 3 other players in the pot we would need to once again squeeze out 4 BB, which is the same BB we needed to hit in the example above. The only difference here is that he pot is not very big. This one is a tough decision, but I think that based on the size of the pot and the fact that we may or may not see multiway action on the flop I let this one go. Is this being too weak-tight in a marginal situation?

C: MP2 folds and CO raises
So here we have A, but with fewer callers. If we assume that BB will now fold and the betting is not capped, then we will be putting in 2.5 SB and the others will contribute 7 SB (3 from UTG+1, 2 from CO, 1 from BB). So we are getting 2.8:1 here. I think that this is an easy fold, especially since our odds only get worse if the betting is capped (however, if we do choose to call the 3-bet here, then we have to call the cap).

D: BB Raised Instead of Folded (on the Flop)
If BB raises and everyone calls here then I think we have an easy call as we are getting 15:1 odds to call.

If BB raises and someone 3-bets then I think we are in a rough spot as we are now sandwiched between the raiser and BB so we may get the dubious honor of calling a cap if we go ahead and call the 3-bet. If we are calling the 3-bet cold then we are getting roughly 8.75:1 at that time (assuming UTG+1 is the 3-better and MP2 calls, which we will know when the action gets to us). If we want to take into account the fact that BB will cap then we will be paying 3 more SB and the pot will have 21 SB...so we are just about 7:1.

This one is a bit tricker...I think we have to assume that BB will cap this and our pot odds are starting to get thin here. I think that gien the fact that BB may or may not cap I still call here.