2/4 KTs play along [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

jason_t

10-02-2005, 10:54 PM

UTG has been LPP, UTG+1 LPA, UTG+2 TAG possibly thinking and capable of isolating the dumbasses here, MP2 is very LPP, the Button is extremely tight and both the blinds are very loose (> 60 VPIP each).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero

Justin A

10-02-2005, 11:01 PM

I can't say fold because then the hand would be over and it wouldn't be much of a play along.

jason_t

10-02-2005, 11:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't say fold because then the hand would be over and it wouldn't be much of a play along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's clear I'm going to call here, but I want to know what people think of that.

10-02-2005, 11:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG has been LPP, UTG+1 LPA, UTG+2 TAG, MP2 is very LPP, the Button is extremely tight and both the blinds are very loose.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero

[/ QUOTE ]
With 4 people already committed I think calling here in late position is the right play especially since the blinds are loose.

Weatherhead03

10-02-2005, 11:03 PM

Call..you are getting decent odds, chances are at least one of the blinds is coming along most likey both. If you happen to flop big then you should get paid off.

B Dids

10-02-2005, 11:07 PM

I can see a case for calling, but I probably don't.

Edit- We talked about this hand earlier and I responded without reading, I was not informed earlier that the blinds sucked because jason_t doesn't understand I require reads in PARAGRAPH FORM before making a decision.

With this new knowledge, I call.

PokerSparky

10-02-2005, 11:09 PM

The way you described the table makes this an easy preflop cold-call IMO -- decent multiway hand with a lot of implied odds from the loose passives at the table.

KDawgCometh

10-02-2005, 11:10 PM

NOt only do we have solid odds right now, I think with this shaping up to be a big ole pot, that we have some good implied odds to cc here PF

10-02-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can see a case for calling, but I probably don't.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe if you fold in this spot you will be playing too tightly, KTs is a profitable hand if the pot is likely to be 6 handed or more even when someone else has announced a better hand by raising. That said, you wont get rich by making these types of calls, but you never want to leave any value on the table no matter how marginal the situation.

Piiop

10-02-2005, 11:20 PM

Lots of loose/bad players in, decent position, I'd call.

jason_t

10-02-2005, 11:36 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero

brettbrettr

10-02-2005, 11:38 PM

Raise.

shant

10-02-2005, 11:38 PM

I'd call. I doubt you're getting a free card, and you're probably getting 3-bet a lot, which may blow out the field if they have to call two. Much better to let them get trapped inbetween when you make your hand and you can raise the whole field on the turn.

Piiop

10-02-2005, 11:38 PM

I'd raise here too. I don't think the inbetweeners will fold that often. If he does 3bet, you can just call the 3bet the raise the turn bet. If he doesn't, you can get that free card if you want it. Either way, you have that equity thing.

Editedx2

B Dids

10-03-2005, 12:28 AM

I'm raising, I might get 3-bet, but I'm cool with a lot of money being in the pot at this point. If I get a free card, I do the happy dance.

Edit- wrt to Shant's post, I think it is a calculated risk that the callers fold to two cold and if you think they will, I would consider just calling.

Also, I think calling this an "easy" raise is slightly oversimplifying things.

newhizzle

10-03-2005, 12:30 AM

very easy raise, you have a big edge and everyones in the middle, who cares if you get 3-bet, at 2/4 its very unlikely that people will call 1 bet then fold to 2 more, easy cap if you do get 3-bet

PokerSparky

10-03-2005, 12:30 AM

Pump the big draw.

shant

10-03-2005, 12:35 AM

I guess I'm over-estimating that the middle players will fold to the 3-bet that's obviously coming. I guess if they don't fold to the 3-bet we get to cap for fun and value so OK let's raise.

brazilio

10-03-2005, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm over-estimating that the middle players will fold to the 3-bet that's obviously coming. I guess if they don't fold to the 3-bet we get to cap for fun and value so OK let's raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was going to agree with you at first, but the pot's absolutely gigantic now, and I expect each of them to call two bets after calling one most of the time.

thesharpie

10-03-2005, 12:40 AM

I think having the gutshot makes it a raise. If we just had K9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif I think I'd just call since we have less of an equity edge, it's more devastating if the inbetweenies fold, and I'm a puss fearing a set. What.

brettbrettr

10-03-2005, 12:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
we have less of an equity edge,

[/ QUOTE ]

But still enouhg of one to raise. You could have K2 here and it woudln't change things.

newhizzle

10-03-2005, 12:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think calling this an "easy" raise is slightly oversimplifying things.

[/ QUOTE ]

why?

suppose he has a set of aces, against 4 players i still think our 12 outs have a big edge, in a pot this big i dont think the in between guys are folding often, easy raise for value

and if were lucky UTG will try to get sexy on the turn

thesharpie

10-03-2005, 12:49 AM

I know we have enough of an equity edge against 3 random holdings, but some of the time the LRRer is going to have a set. I guess we still have >25% equity when he does anyway, but the risk of knocking the others out, and being heads up or 3 way agianst a likely set makes a raise look less inticing to me.

Edit: Talking about if we don't have the gutshot to go along with the flush draw in case anyone didn't realize.

B Dids

10-03-2005, 01:14 AM

I suggest reading the posts in this thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3560111&Main=3559196#Post 3560111) and see why it's a little more complex than that.

TheMainEvent

10-03-2005, 01:19 AM

I don't know who's dumber, you for posting a recursive link to this thread, or me for clicking on it 5 times expecting a new thread to pop up.

Wait, this just in, it's me.

brettbrettr

10-03-2005, 01:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know who's dumber, you for posting a recursive link to this thread, or me for clicking on it 5 times expecting a new thread to pop up.

[/ QUOTE ]

hahahahahaha

Entity

10-03-2005, 01:24 AM

I'd call.

SCfuji

10-03-2005, 01:26 AM

jason

i think you kill your implied odds here if you raise for the free card hoping that the aggro villain doesnt 3 bet. call and destroy them all when you hit a diamond on the turn and there is a bet and calls in front of you and your eyes will look like this: $_________$ bling bling.

shant

10-03-2005, 01:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never should've doubted myself. Please forgive me.

Alex/Mugaaz

10-03-2005, 01:31 AM

Am I missing something? Why is this flop interesting? You and a top pair hand or a set hand are competing for everyone elses money, you may get redrawn if you get there, but why does that matter, you got plenty of equity.

You may regret this hand occasionally if you're up against a higher flush draw, or possibly a set of aces with the Ad. But this is 2/4, you need to gamble here.

Entity

10-03-2005, 01:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something? Why is this flop interesting? You and a top pair hand or a set hand are competing for everyone elses money, you may get redrawn if you get there, but why does that matter, you got plenty of equity.

You may regret this hand occasionally if you're up against a higher flush draw, or possibly a set of aces with the Ad. But this is 2/4, you need to gamble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[22:24] entity: if I'm listing the reasons I'd call
[22:24] entity: 1) if I hit I want to be led into, I don't want a free card all that much
[22:24] entity: 2) AA, QQ, AdXd [censored] sucks for me
[22:25] entity: 3) if she's donking I don't want her to slow down and limit how much I can get from a trapped field

[/ QUOTE ]

From AIM with Jason. If I'm raising, it's because I'm damned sure that both of them are always calling, but with one of them being a TAG, that diminishes our chances quite a bit. I'd rather have people trapped when I hit here.

Rob

Shillx

10-03-2005, 01:42 AM

You mean T_____________________T? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I tend to think that free cards are worth more then other people imply (in small or short handed pots). I don't realy mind a call here, but what do I know...I play NL. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

jason_t

10-03-2005, 01:57 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero

Alex/Mugaaz

10-03-2005, 01:59 AM

I fold here around 99% of the time.

Entity

10-03-2005, 02:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold here around 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think you're drawing dead > 50% of the time? I'm going to sleep soon so I'll say that I call here without much of a conscience. You're getting 13.25:2 with implieds here on a 3.18:1 draw.

B Dids

10-03-2005, 02:05 AM

I wince and call.

Alex/Mugaaz

10-03-2005, 02:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold here around 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think you're drawing dead > 50% of the time? I'm going to sleep soon so I'll say that I call here without much of a conscience. You're getting 13.25:2 with implieds here on a 3.18:1 draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you're not closing the action.

jason_t

10-03-2005, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I fold here around 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the flop but fold the turn. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Entity

10-03-2005, 02:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold here around 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You really think you're drawing dead > 50% of the time? I'm going to sleep soon so I'll say that I call here without much of a conscience. You're getting 13.25:2 with implieds here on a 3.18:1 draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you're not closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that much of a problem in a pot this size. I can say, with about 99.9% certainty, that the TAG is not 3-betting here. If UTG check-3bets here, I can fold with no conscience but I think that's happening very rarely.

Rob

SCfuji

10-03-2005, 02:12 AM

ca ca ca callll. humongo pot = ppl fight tough for it.

id be more worried about a sick utg check/3-bet than MP3s raise.

Alex/Mugaaz

10-03-2005, 02:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold here around 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the flop but fold the turn. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

With this turn action I am. I think this spot totally sucks. If you hit on the river how much action do you even want to get really? Every single out you have just got fractioned, the turn action shows that the possibility of you drawing dead has increased noticeably, you can't close the action. Things couldn't have gone south much faster. I may be incorrect here, but this is one of those spots where I don't get cute when I'm multi-tabling.

MCS

10-03-2005, 02:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
this is one of those spots where I don't get cute when I'm multi-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think calling is "getting cute." I think it's noticing that the pot is big enough that calling has the highest EV, and praying that one of your outs hits.

Alex/Mugaaz

10-03-2005, 03:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this is one of those spots where I don't get cute when I'm multi-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think calling is "getting cute." I think it's noticing that the pot is big enough that calling has the highest EV, and praying that one of your outs hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I say get cute I meant narrow the hand range down for each player and try to estimate how good my outs still are. If I'm going to call here then I'm definitely going to be betting and raising the river when I hit, anyone who calls here, hits the flush or straight on the river, AND THEN just calls for 1 bet is just being dumb. When I multitable I'm not capable of this level of computation, so while the pot is pretty big it isn't large enough for me to keep going here. I believe this is addressed in 2+2 books where the conclusion is you need better than normal odds to draw in these situations. I haven't found enough evidence to show that this pot is providing those odds.

Everything about this turn went sour.

jason_t

10-03-2005, 03:45 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (16.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero

brazilio

10-03-2005, 03:51 AM

I like an overcall better than I like raising and folding to the 3-bet or calling depending on reads, UTG+2 won't call two but he will go to sd for one. No guaranteed UTG+2 will call two cold.

KDawgCometh

10-03-2005, 04:09 AM

I think that this is a place to go for an overcall from utg+2. I just don't know what the villian might be three betting us with, if its a FH or Top two, this is a interesting situation. I guess I'll sleep on it, cause part of me wants to raise, and another part wants to go for the overcall. I guess the main question is whether or not utg+2 will call a river raise enough to make it profitable for the times that we may get 3bet by a FH

10-03-2005, 04:38 AM

You have to have a REALLY good reason to fold this turn. Since Jason isn't giving us anything outrageous in the reads, ie MP3 would only raise with a house, folding here is bad.

This needs a more specific read on MP3 to even consider folding. "very LPP" could make this a fold, it could also be a very, very easy call.

oreogod

10-03-2005, 04:56 AM

As far as turn, its fine. Say u are drawing live...u have 11outs that dont pair the board. Unless hes raising w/ 93s or some such hand u could have one less out than that.

either way, if we count UTG2 coming along for one more, pot is laying 7:1 on about a 3:1 shot in immediate odds (and we dont get re-popped). Unless your LPP friend has A3, QQ or AA u are still going live here. As far as river, Id probably overcall.

10-03-2005, 05:03 AM

It seems unlikely that UTG+2 was on a draw from previous action. So more often than not, I think he overcalls on the river when we don't raise. A lot of the time, I'd expect him to fold after we raise. So as far as UTG+2 goes, I think calling is much better.

MP3 could definitely have us beat. Again, I think a more precise read would make a big difference for people looking at this hand. As it is, it seems like there's a decent chance that we're beat.

So basically I'm thinking that the values go like this:

value[UTG+2overcall] > value[UTG+2coldcall + MP3call]

Entity

10-03-2005, 06:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If I'm going to call here then I'm definitely going to be betting and raising the river when I hit, anyone who calls here, hits the flush or straight on the river, AND THEN just calls for 1 bet is just being dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded. Seriously. You don't need to raise just because you hit.

Rob

oreogod

10-03-2005, 06:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm going to call here then I'm definitely going to be betting and raising the river when I hit, anyone who calls here, hits the flush or straight on the river, AND THEN just calls for 1 bet is just being dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded. Seriously. You don't need to raise just because you hit.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

For some ppl its just compulsive. Like touching a stripper when shes giving u a lapdance (or just wanting to take her home and [censored] her).

Some ppl just cant help themselves.

thesharpie

10-03-2005, 06:29 AM

Sorry I can't hold it in any longer... NICE [censored] AVATAR.

Alex/Mugaaz

10-03-2005, 06:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm going to call here then I'm definitely going to be betting and raising the river when I hit, anyone who calls here, hits the flush or straight on the river, AND THEN just calls for 1 bet is just being dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded. Seriously. You don't need to raise just because you hit.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? (barring overcall reasons)

baronzeus

10-03-2005, 06:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (16.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero

[/ QUOTE ]

i missed this and i dont play 2/4 but i call preflop, raise the flop, call the turn, and raise the river

jason_t

10-03-2005, 06:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]

i missed this and i dont play 2/4 but i call preflop, raise the flop, call the turn, and raise the river

[/ QUOTE ]

There are pretty good reasons for folding preflop, calling the flop, folding the turn and calling the river. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

baronzeus

10-03-2005, 06:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Am I missing something? Why is this flop interesting? You and a top pair hand or a set hand are competing for everyone elses money, you may get redrawn if you get there, but why does that matter, you got plenty of equity.

You may regret this hand occasionally if you're up against a higher flush draw, or possibly a set of aces with the Ad. But this is 2/4, you need to gamble here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[22:24] entity: if I'm listing the reasons I'd call
[22:24] entity: 1) if I hit I want to be led into, I don't want a free card all that much
[22:24] entity: 2) AA, QQ, AdXd [censored] sucks for me
[22:25] entity: 3) if she's donking I don't want her to slow down and limit how much I can get from a trapped field

[/ QUOTE ]

From AIM with Jason. If I'm raising, it's because I'm damned sure that both of them are always calling, but with one of them being a TAG, that diminishes our chances quite a bit. I'd rather have people trapped when I hit here.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

i think assuming UTG has AA or QQ because he limp reraised and led an A high flop is probably bad. and im almost certain no one else has AA or QQ because it wasn't capped preflop.

i raise also because i think people will call any 3bet.

oreogod

10-03-2005, 06:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I can't hold it in any longer... NICE [censored] AVATAR.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. Still needs work, but it works for now.

Alex/Mugaaz

10-03-2005, 07:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I'm going to call here then I'm definitely going to be betting and raising the river when I hit, anyone who calls here, hits the flush or straight on the river, AND THEN just calls for 1 bet is just being dumb.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is retarded. Seriously. You don't need to raise just because you hit.

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

Last post before I go to bed.

On the turn people argued you should call because you're getting around 6.5 to 1 and have around 12 dirty out that are good enough to call here.

But now you hit one of your dream cards on the river but raising now is supposed to be wrong (ignore overcall reasons completely please) even though the better will call 100% (agree?). For raising to be wrong you must expect your hand to win here less than 66% of the time.

How can these both be right? If your straight outs weren't good at least 66% of the time they were less than 2.0. This would also mean your flush outs were worth a maximum of 6 and should of been discounted even further since they were non nut flush. If that's the case you had around maybe 5-7 outs to begin with and should of folded the turn since you couldn't close the action.

Maybe I'm just too tired and not thinking straight but I can't understand how you can take both these positions.

B Dids

10-03-2005, 09:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I fold here around 99% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the flop but fold the turn. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

With this turn action I am. I think this spot totally sucks. If you hit on the river how much action do you even want to get really? Every single out you have just got fractioned, the turn action shows that the possibility of you drawing dead has increased noticeably, you can't close the action. Things couldn't have gone south much faster. I may be incorrect here, but this is one of those spots where I don't get cute when I'm multi-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the case, you really shouldn't multi table

B Dids

10-03-2005, 09:18 AM

I think going for the overcall is better here. My initial impulse was to raise, but the hand just feels fishy in spots. I think calling here is a good way to win the most when ahead, the least when I'm behind.

Evan

10-03-2005, 09:39 AM

Preflop: Fold because you need to fall out of love with coldcalling before it attmtps to stab you while you're sleeping with the knife you use to cut bagels.

Flop: Raise, lots of outs and lots of callers. At this level I think you're less likely to get 3 bet by a one pair hand and more likely to get a fee card if you want.

Turn: Call and it's not close. You're not drawing dead nearly enough to fold.

River: Raise. UTG+2 will call pretty often with an ace and the other guy's definitely calling. If MP3 3 bets I'd cap. Whoever mentioned raising the river and folding to a 3 bet really needs to think about the hands these guys can have and how they can't be better than yours.

10-03-2005, 09:49 AM

I'm gonna say capping the river is spewing. From a passive 2/4 player, a 3 bet here is almost certainly a house.

OnkelHotte

10-03-2005, 10:08 AM

u get at least 4,5 to 1 and probably 5,5 or 6,5 to 1 for the preflop call. this is an EASY call against 2/4 players.

Evan

10-03-2005, 10:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
u get at least 4,5 to 1 and probably 5,5 or 6,5 to 1 for the preflop call. this is an EASY call against 2/4 players.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're also likely to be dominated and may not have the button. This is not an easy call.

10-03-2005, 10:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]
u get at least 4,5 to 1 and probably 5,5 or 6,5 to 1 for the preflop call. this is an MARGINAL call against 2/4 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

OnkelHotte

10-03-2005, 10:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u get at least 4,5 to 1 and probably 5,5 or 6,5 to 1 for the preflop call. this is an MARGINAL call against 2/4 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm depends on the time u play. On american prime time this is an easy call, on european prime time its maybe marginal. of cuz u can be dominated, but u play this hand cause its suited not 4 winning with top pair. And on the average >30% VP$IP table limpers in genereal can have any trash

brettbrettr

10-03-2005, 11:03 AM

Yes, it depends on what time it is. Agreed.

B Dids

10-03-2005, 11:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
u get at least 4,5 to 1 and probably 5,5 or 6,5 to 1 for the preflop call. this is an MARGINAL call against 2/4 players.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

hmm depends on the time u play. On american prime time this is an easy call, on european prime time its maybe marginal. of cuz u can be dominated, but u play this hand cause its suited not 4 winning with top pair. And on the average >30% VP$IP table limpers in genereal can have any trash

[/ QUOTE ]

I kidna like the way this is thinking, but I'd rather just say "it depends on who you're playing with".

Based on some of the euro's I've played with, I'd say this is a great 3-betting and capping the flop unimproved with hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

OnkelHotte

10-03-2005, 11:29 AM

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u get at least 4,5 to 1 and probably 5,5 or 6,5 to 1 for the preflop call. this is an MARGINAL call against 2/4 players.

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hmm depends on the time u play. On american prime time this is an easy call, on european prime time its maybe marginal. of cuz u can be dominated, but u play this hand cause its suited not 4 winning with top pair. And on the average >30% VP$IP table limpers in genereal can have any trash

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I kidna like the way this is thinking, but I'd rather just say "it depends on who you're playing with".

Based on some of the euro's I've played with, I'd say this is a great 3-betting and capping the flop unimproved with hand /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

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/images/graemlins/smile.gif nice1.^^ i know that "easy call" may sound a bit sloppy, but its definitly +EV unless ur table is very tight. And cause i avoid tight 2/4 tables its a call 4 me^^

sfer

10-03-2005, 12:30 PM

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I'd call.

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On the flop? C'mon....

istewart

10-03-2005, 12:38 PM

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Yes, it depends on what time it is. Agreed.

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lmao

Entity

10-03-2005, 01:01 PM

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I'd call.

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On the flop? C'mon....

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5-ways I raise here. 4-ways with a LRR that Jason mentioned to me that he had no reason to distrust (this per AIM conversation) and the spectre of a 3-bet that will very frequently cause a TAG who is currently in calldown mode to fold, and I don't always raise. I think it's a close decision but I call here.

Rob

sfer

10-03-2005, 01:18 PM

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I'd call.

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On the flop? C'mon....

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5-ways I raise here. 4-ways with a LRR that Jason mentioned to me that he had no reason to distrust (this per AIM conversation) and the spectre of a 3-bet that will very frequently cause a TAG who is currently in calldown mode to fold, and I don't always raise. I think it's a close decision but I call here.

Rob

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Are we talking preflop or flop? The flop is a no-brainer raise to me.

Entity

10-03-2005, 01:40 PM

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I'd call.

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On the flop? C'mon....

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5-ways I raise here. 4-ways with a LRR that Jason mentioned to me that he had no reason to distrust (this per AIM conversation) and the spectre of a 3-bet that will very frequently cause a TAG who is currently in calldown mode to fold, and I don't always raise. I think it's a close decision but I call here.

Rob

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Are we talking preflop or flop? The flop is a no-brainer raise to me.

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We're talking flop. Your edge is huge when the PFR is donking, but then you lose the ability to raise through the rest of the field when you raise. Of course, he could see that everyone called on the flop and his 76s bluff won't work anymore on the turn and give up, so the raise through the field is mitigated somewhat, but that is offset by the times you're up against a real hand, in which case your raise is going to often be marginally -EV to neutral at best, as the 3-bet will usually drop the TAG and may occasionally drop the other dude, though that's certainly MUCH less likely.

I think it's close, but I tend to call here. One more caller and it's a no brainer.

Rob

private joker

10-03-2005, 01:44 PM

PF: I fold, but I like to fold preflop. I like the suitedness of our broadway cards, but I dislike the dominatedness.

Flop: Raise for value.

Turn: We wouldn't be in this spot if we'd raised; but it seems like a straight-forward call.

River: Raise and call a 3-bet. I don't want to take a chance that UTG folds and I miss my overcall. I have the nut straight and no indication I'm up against a boat yet, unless MP woke up with A3, so I'd like to get some more $ in. I'm calling a 3-bet because of the paired board.

DMBFan23

10-03-2005, 02:53 PM

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as the 3-bet will usually drop the TAG

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if this is true, wasn't he folding the turn when we hit anyways?

Entity

10-03-2005, 03:13 PM

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as the 3-bet will usually drop the TAG

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if this is true, wasn't he folding the turn when we hit anyways?

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No, I think a TAG with a hand like AT or AJ will be calling the turn often on the FOS-contingent.

Rob

sfer

10-03-2005, 04:08 PM

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I'd call.

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On the flop? C'mon....

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5-ways I raise here. 4-ways with a LRR that Jason mentioned to me that he had no reason to distrust (this per AIM conversation) and the spectre of a 3-bet that will very frequently cause a TAG who is currently in calldown mode to fold, and I don't always raise. I think it's a close decision but I call here.

Rob

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Are we talking preflop or flop? The flop is a no-brainer raise to me.

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We're talking flop. Your edge is huge when the PFR is donking, but then you lose the ability to raise through the rest of the field when you raise. Of course, he could see that everyone called on the flop and his 76s bluff won't work anymore on the turn and give up, so the raise through the field is mitigated somewhat, but that is offset by the times you're up against a real hand, in which case your raise is going to often be marginally -EV to neutral at best, as the 3-bet will usually drop the TAG and may occasionally drop the other dude, though that's certainly MUCH less likely.

I think it's close, but I tend to call here. One more caller and it's a no brainer.

Rob

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12 nut outs and it's very possible that 1-pair outs make me good, unless there's something in the limp-reraise I haven't read, once the original preflop aggressor just calls. I'd be raising even if it were just UTG and the preflop raiser trapped between us and I'd happily 4-bet too and take my freebie.

Entity

10-03-2005, 04:14 PM

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I'd call.

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On the flop? C'mon....

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5-ways I raise here. 4-ways with a LRR that Jason mentioned to me that he had no reason to distrust (this per AIM conversation) and the spectre of a 3-bet that will very frequently cause a TAG who is currently in calldown mode to fold, and I don't always raise. I think it's a close decision but I call here.

Rob

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Are we talking preflop or flop? The flop is a no-brainer raise to me.

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We're talking flop. Your edge is huge when the PFR is donking, but then you lose the ability to raise through the rest of the field when you raise. Of course, he could see that everyone called on the flop and his 76s bluff won't work anymore on the turn and give up, so the raise through the field is mitigated somewhat, but that is offset by the times you're up against a real hand, in which case your raise is going to often be marginally -EV to neutral at best, as the 3-bet will usually drop the TAG and may occasionally drop the other dude, though that's certainly MUCH less likely.

I think it's close, but I tend to call here. One more caller and it's a no brainer.

Rob

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12 nut outs and it's very possible that 1-pair outs make me good, unless there's something in the limp-reraise I haven't read, once the original preflop aggressor just calls. I'd be raising even if it were just UTG and the preflop raiser trapped between us and I'd happily 4-bet too and take my freebie.

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I know TAGs play bad all the time, but I can't imagine my pair outs ever being good here. Just FWIW. If you raise, get 3-bet, and 4-bet for a "freebie" 3-ways, you're paying for your free card, if you actually get it.

Rob

Rob

sfer

10-03-2005, 04:41 PM

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I'd call.

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On the flop? C'mon....

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5-ways I raise here. 4-ways with a LRR that Jason mentioned to me that he had no reason to distrust (this per AIM conversation) and the spectre of a 3-bet that will very frequently cause a TAG who is currently in calldown mode to fold, and I don't always raise. I think it's a close decision but I call here.

Rob

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Are we talking preflop or flop? The flop is a no-brainer raise to me.

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We're talking flop. Your edge is huge when the PFR is donking, but then you lose the ability to raise through the rest of the field when you raise. Of course, he could see that everyone called on the flop and his 76s bluff won't work anymore on the turn and give up, so the raise through the field is mitigated somewhat, but that is offset by the times you're up against a real hand, in which case your raise is going to often be marginally -EV to neutral at best, as the 3-bet will usually drop the TAG and may occasionally drop the other dude, though that's certainly MUCH less likely.

I think it's close, but I tend to call here. One more caller and it's a no brainer.

Rob

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12 nut outs and it's very possible that 1-pair outs make me good, unless there's something in the limp-reraise I haven't read, once the original preflop aggressor just calls. I'd be raising even if it were just UTG and the preflop raiser trapped between us and I'd happily 4-bet too and take my freebie.

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I know TAGs play bad all the time, but I can't imagine my pair outs ever being good here. Just FWIW. If you raise, get 3-bet, and 4-bet for a "freebie" 3-ways, you're paying for your free card, if you actually get it.

Rob

Rob

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Yes, but it helps control the number of bets that go in on the turn because even turned monsters will try to checkraise you.

silkyslim

10-03-2005, 04:41 PM

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Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (16.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)

UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero

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i fold pf. We are getting 3-1 immediate, arent closing the action, dont know if UTG and UTG+1 will call, etc. so I dont think its enough. On the flop I call. I dont want the pf 3-bettor to 3bet and drive my field out. (which he is likely to do on this flop). I can forego the possible free card for more callers. On the turn I call. MP3's raise doesn't indicate a boat enough to fold, if anything, he made a perfect move to protect a vulnerable hand in a large pot. I am getting 6.6-1 on my flush and gutshot, which is more than enough. On the river I think I am definately getting an overcall from UTG+2 as he raised pf and called all the way. He has a made hand which im pretty sure we beat. Also, just in case MP3 has a boat puts the overcall over the edge as the right play for me!

jason_t

10-04-2005, 02:35 AM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, 3 folds, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+2 calls.

River: (16.25 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

Results:
UTG+2 has Ad Qc (two pair, aces and queens).
MP3 has Ac 3c (full house, threes full of aces).
Hero has Kd Td (straight, ace high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 19.25 BB.

ErrantNight

10-04-2005, 09:07 AM

pwned.

jason_t

10-04-2005, 03:08 PM

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pwned.

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/images/graemlins/confused.gif

SomethingClever

10-04-2005, 03:23 PM

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... but then you lose the ability to raise through the rest of the field when you raise.

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Not necessarily. With that many players in the middle, and the possibility of a stop and donk from the pfr, you get bet into more than I think you're giving credit for.

My initial reaction was to raise... I read some of the responses and reconsidered, and I think I still like a flop raise.

ErrantNight

10-04-2005, 06:42 PM

jus' tryin' to make light of getting bought by someone's A3s cold-call...

Alex/Mugaaz

10-04-2005, 06:45 PM

This is why I fold here most of the time unless the pot is bigger.

Trix

10-04-2005, 07:07 PM

I play too preflop.

I´m not really decided on the flop action yet, but would have raised. I think it´s somewhat close atleast.

The turn isn´t close. Much of the time MP3 will have trip 3s here, so you are good if you hit.
Dont think the river is close either. UTG+2 is overcalling almost allways and MP will have a boat a significant ammount of the time. I think UTG+2 can find a fold for two cold, so you win the same mostly but lose less.

Whoever said raise and cap the river is out of his mind.

Alex/Mugaaz

10-04-2005, 07:26 PM

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I play too preflop.

I´m not really decided on the flop action yet, but would have raised. I think it´s somewhat close atleast.

The turn isn´t close. Much of the time MP3 will have trip 3s here, so you are good if you hit. Dont think the river is close either. UTG+2 is overcalling almost allways and MP will have a boat a significant ammount of the time. I think UTG+2 can find a fold for two cold, so you win the same mostly but lose less.

Whoever said raise and cap the river is out of his mind.

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Are you saying that MP has J3? It must be that or one of your views is not consistent.

edit: mystype