$55... It reeks of check raise in here

[bigt439]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero (t905)
MP3 (t985)
CO (t820)
Button (t1000)
SB (t1255)
BB (t1790)
UTG (t1205)
UTG+1 (t1020)
MP1 (t1020)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t100, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>.

Flop: (t245) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t245) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: (t245) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t275</font>, Hero calls t275.

Final Pot: t795

The villain in this hand is not an idiot. That doesn't mean he's a winner or anything, but he's not a total moron.

This line looks so weak it hurts, but I really feel like I get c/r'd alot in this spot. That would be fine in that I could fold knowing I'm beat, if it weren't for the fact that AK will play like that alot and I don't want to be blown off my hand... by my hand. I also feel like the flop isn't quite way ahead or way behind, but it's close, so giving free cards to hands like JJ or AQ isn't a big deal and I think maximizes my EV against them anyways. I think the flop can safely be a check, but I guess I'm more interested in what people think of the turn check. I was betting the river for 2/3 pot if checked to.

[bluefeet]

Check-raised with what, AA? I can't see him giving you the turn for free here with THAT hand. By all means hit this flop...IMHO. I'm not sure what other hand has you slowed down here.

Ps. I like just calling PF btw.

[mlagoo]

I can't imagine AA or KK letting this turn check through, so I'm betting for value, bearing in mind that there is at least some chance you'll get a call from QQ or JJ (depending on your image, I guess).

If I checked the turn, it's because I want him to bet the river, and I'm definitely raising. Again, I just don't think he lets AA or KK check through the turn. So I am pretty sure I am ahead here on the river, and don't want to miss value.

I definitely think there is a chance you'll get a call from QQ or JJ having checked it through on the flop and the turn, so I think a raise is in order here.

[inyaface]

I like the turn check behind if yourn trying to induce a bluff on the river. J/W why did you think it was a C/R on the flop. I think a more likely hand is JJ/QQ here and they want to keep the pot small. In that case leading the turn might also make sense to get a call from one of these hands. If your C/R on the turn re-evaluate. Also since your set on the villan C/R the flop a very possible hand is AQ or AJ of spades in which case you want to bet the turn...so pros of firing turn are getting value from a draw/worse hand...pros of checking is that you induce a river bluff and keep the pot small if your behind....close one...I think I check the river and hope the villan doesn't have a lot of outs and let them bluff/think they are value betting the river...I really don't think your beat that often here

[bigt439]

Check raised with what

I was thinking AA, KK, or AK. While I wouldn't likely play any of those hands like that, I can see alot of people doing it. It's actually a really good flop for AA and the like and I wouldn't be terrified to give a free card. Again I wouldn't do it, but I think lots would. We can pretty much discount KK. But getting check raised isn't the only reason for checking the flop.

I also checked because I think this is the best way to get money out of QQ and JJ. I have the A of spades so there is pretty much not a single draw out.

I guess the crux of my thinking is that this guy is a sane UTG raiser. He has a good hand here. What one of those hands is it a good idea to bet against on the flop? (by the way I'm not saying someone can't prove me wrong, I'm just saying that's where I'm coming from)

I've sort of applied the same logic to the turn, because the situation hasn't really changed all that much... except that he's now checked twice, which kind of does change the situation. I think the turn is much closer, but I don't think it's an autobet.

Just to respond to the issue of raising this river, I think it gets called very rarely by hands I beat, and while it is pushed over or called rarely by hands that beat me, I think this is way more often than the former scenario.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
I like the turn check behind if yourn trying to induce a bluff on the river. J/W why did you think it was a C/R on the flop. I think a more likely hand is JJ/QQ here and they want to keep the pot small. In that case leading the turn might also make sense to get a call from one of these hands. If your C/R on the turn re-evaluate. Also since your set on the villan C/R the flop a very possible hand is AQ or AJ of spades in which case you want to bet the turn...so pros of firing turn are getting value from a draw/worse hand...pros of checking is that you induce a river bluff and keep the pot small if your behind....close one...I think I check the river and hope the villan doesn't have a lot of outs and let them bluff/think they are value betting the river...I really don't think your beat that often here

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay good post. I think this hand is actually quite complicated. Lots going on here.

Firstly you missed I had the A of spades, so the board is virtually drawless.

I touched on most of the other stuff on the reply to bluefeet, so you can check that out, but yes I am trying to induce a bluff on the river, or a value bet for that matter from hands that should think they can.

I think my thinking comes down to not getting blown off my hand by AK, and maximizing against QQ and JJ (because I don't think I get paid on 2 streets) or another hand that bluffs the river, while not worrying about protecting my hand against draws.

By the way if I bet the turn I am folding to a check raise. Which is alot of the reason why I don't. What hand am I ahead of? (I can see myself chopping a bunch).

[inyaface]

[ QUOTE ]
I have the A of spades so there is pretty much not a single draw out.


[/ QUOTE ]
OOPS
AA, QQ or JJ
last time I checked you beat two of those so just ship it....I definatly don't reraise the river.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have the A of spades so there is pretty much not a single draw out.


[/ QUOTE ]
OOPS
AA, QQ or JJ
last time I checked you beat two of those so just ship it....I definatly don't reraise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I'm never folding the river. I'm mostly asking about the turn check. And maybe the flop check for some cunning cat who can talk me away from it.

[inyaface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have the A of spades so there is pretty much not a single draw out.


[/ QUOTE ]
OOPS
AA, QQ or JJ
last time I checked you beat two of those so just ship it....I definatly don't reraise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I'm never folding the river. I'm mostly asking about the turn check. And maybe the flop check for some cunning cat who can talk me away from it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't look at me...I'm dirty and weak tight. Turn I really could go either way river same line.