The Rebluff

[BoxTree]

Commerce 20/40 live, 9-handed

Hero has K/images/graemlins/heart.gif9/images/graemlins/club.gif in the CO.

Five folds, Hero raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop (2 players, 4 sb): T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif4/images/graemlins/club.gif

BB checks, Hero checks.

Turn (2 players, 2 bb): 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif

BB checks, Hero bets, BB check-raises, Hero 3-bets...

I figured there was at least a 25% chance that he was bluff-check-raising, so my rebluff seemed reasonable.

Is this just spewage?

Notes on Villain: I had seen him make one tricky move in the six hands I had played with him at that point.

[private joker]

Why not bet the flop?

[BoxTree]

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Why not bet the flop?

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So I can 3-bet the turn and pretend I have TT. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not bet the flop?

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So I can 3-bet the turn and pretend I have TT. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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You definitely shouldve bet the flop but given the fact that you didnt, it definitely looks like youre being checkraised bluffed here, but before you try to bluffraise his bluff you still must ask yourself..is this opponent capable of checkraise bluffing the turn? If he is then I think your read is correct and a 3 bet looks fine. If youre 3 bet is called, you will have to bet the river no matter what card hits except the Jack of diamonds and the six of diamonds, since the pot will be big enough to justify another bet in the hopes that the villain was drawing.

[BoxTree]

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You definitely shouldve bet the flop

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I entirely disagree. Most of the time I bet this flop. Some of the time I fold to any bet. And a very thin portion of the time I consider the rebluff. I felt that this was the time to bet the turn and follow through with a rebluff. (If he has a seven or a ten, oh well. And yes, I bet the river if a brick falls. He could very well be semibluff c/r'ing the turn on a draw.)

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
I felt that this was the time to bet the turn and follow through with a rebluff. (If he has a seven or a ten, oh well. And yes, I bet the river if a brick falls. He could very well be semibluff c/r'ing the turn on a draw.)

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I'd just like to point out how expensive I think this is. That's all.

[brettbrettr]

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Most of the time I bet this flop. Some of the time I fold to any bet. And a very thin portion of the time I consider the rebluff. I felt that this was the time to bet the turn and follow through with a rebluff.

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You knew looking at the flop that he'd check the flop *and* the turn?

[OnkelHotte]

hello guys? FOLD PREFLOP! K9o sucks as hell for a steal from CO!

[Barry]

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hello guys? FOLD PREFLOP! K9o sucks as hell for a steal from CO!

[/ QUOTE ].

You're kidding right? This is an easy open raise from the CO against most blinds.

[OnkelHotte]

I am not! On the button I would consider raising, but from CO this is -EV.

[Derek in NYC]

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If youre 3 bet is called, you will have to bet the river no matter what card hits except the Jack of diamonds and the six of diamonds, since the pot will be big enough to justify another bet in the hopes that the villain was drawing.

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I think king high has enough showdown value here that it isn't necessary to bet the river. I think you'll run into pairs that will call way more often than you will run into ace-high. (Dont you think ace high three-bets this preflop if he's deciding to defend?)

[crunchy1]

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I am not! On the button I would consider raising, but from CO this is -EV.

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You're wrong.

[BigEndian]

I think this is putting too many chips in the pot without reason to do so. He can have a wide variety of hands that will call you here and proably even call the river. When you swing the peen like this you want an immediate fold the vast majority of the time.

But it seems you feel proud of the play. If it worked for you this time, that's good to hear.

- Jim

[BigEndian]

K9o is well within the range for CO stealing hands for average buttons and blinds.

- Jim

[krimson]

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I am not! On the button I would consider raising, but from CO this is -EV.

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You think there is really that huge of a difference between the CO and Button? When you raise from the CO the button will fold 90%+ of the time, assuming your practicing good seat selection.

So how is K9o -ev from the CO, but +ev on the button?

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If youre 3 bet is called, you will have to bet the river no matter what card hits except the Jack of diamonds and the six of diamonds, since the pot will be big enough to justify another bet in the hopes that the villain was drawing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think king high has enough showdown value here that it isn't necessary to bet the river. I think you'll run into pairs that will call way more often than you will run into ace-high. (Dont you think ace high three-bets this preflop if he's deciding to defend?)

[/ QUOTE ]
You have made a very good point, but once the river comes, the pot will be large enough where I simply will not want to take the chance that my opponent has ace high or even a better king high. Also there are many Ace highs that a typical opponent would just call with in the BB against a steal, A2,A3,A4,A5,A6,A7,A8,AT. Betting the river is still debatable since the villain may not even fold ace high, but the pot is large enough where I am willing to bet the river and take that chance.

[onegymrat]

Has no one even noticed the brilliant coinage of "rebluff"? This plays along the same lines as Elaine Benes' coinage of "regift".

BTW, nice move. I hope he laid it down. It's hard enough for me to "bluff" so the "rebluff" is something I need to work on.

[bobbyi]

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Has no one even noticed the brilliant coinage of "rebluff"? This plays along the same lines as Elaine Benes' coinage of "regift".

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Meh. I much perfer Abdul Jalib's term for this play: The "[censored]-you-I-don't-believe-you-either reraise".

[baronzeus]

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I am not! On the button I would consider raising, but from CO this is -EV.

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dude, you are hilarious

[W. Deranged]

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I'd just like to point out how expensive I think this is. That's all.

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[B Dids]

You should probably stop giving advice if this is what you're going to offer up.

I have a crush on K9o.

[BigEndian]

I would rather see him post and learn from feedback to his posts.

- Jim

[BoxTree]

Result: I said "3-bet," reached for my chips, and was suddenly covered in yellow. Villain insta-mucked his hand to my 3-bet and said, "Ach! I figured I'd catch you bluffing this time."

And yes, he said, "Ach!"

As for Rubenstein: "You knew looking at the flop that he'd check the flop *and* the turn?"

After I checked behind him on the flop, he gave me a look like that said, "Huh. I guess you have crap." When he checked the turn I had a very strong feeling that he was inviting me to BLUFF (as opposed to betting with goods). Hence, my 3-bet. Reads like this are few and far between. And even then, they're not always good.

But I felt confident in this one.

Glad I was right.

And...incidentally...I guess I had the winner all along.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

I don't think betting every flop is a good blind stealing strategy. It makes you very predictable. I like checking behind and then betting/raising the turn to mix it up. As others have pointed out the 3-bet is relatively expensive to the pot and you really have to consider your reads.

[jskills]

I'd bet the flop.

His C/R on turn sure looks like he's got a 7.

Why fight for a 2 BB pot with nothing but K high anyway?

[jskills]

Nice read. My previous advice before I looked at the results seems silly to me now /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[BoxTree]

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As others have pointed out the 3-bet is relatively expensive to the pot and you really have to consider your reads.

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Really expensive? If I commit to putting in three big bets at the start of the turn, then I'm risking three big bets to win four big bets (the two in the pot plus the two I'll get when he c/r bluffs the turn). So, I have to be confident that he's c/r bluffing at least 43% of the time. My reads gave me much more confidence than 43%.

Perhaps the proponents of the "this is really expensive" line of thought are primarily online players. Online, this is a suicidal move. In B&M, I actually think I'm getting a good price for this move. Next time, I suppose I'll post (or x-post) a very read-dependent hand in B&M.

Edit: In my original post, I wrote that I felt there was at least a 25% chance that he was bluffing. I should have considered 43 (not 25) since I had made up my mind prior to his turn c/r.

[TemetNosce]

[ QUOTE ]
After I checked behind him on the flop, he gave me a look like that said, "Huh. I guess you have crap." When he checked the turn I had a very strong feeling that he was inviting me to BLUFF (as opposed to betting with goods). Hence, my 3-bet. Reads like this are few and far between. And even then, they're not always good.

[/ QUOTE ]

The beauty of playing live. Nicely done.

[ZenMusician]

[ QUOTE ]
Result: I said "3-bet," reached for my chips, and was suddenly covered in yellow. Villain insta-mucked his hand to my 3-bet and said, "Ach! I figured I'd catch you bluffing this time."

And yes, he said, "Ach!"

As for Rubenstein: "You knew looking at the flop that he'd check the flop *and* the turn?"

After I checked behind him on the flop, he gave me a look like that said, "Huh. I guess you have crap." When he checked the turn I had a very strong feeling that he was inviting me to BLUFF (as opposed to betting with goods). Hence, my 3-bet. Reads like this are few and far between. And even then, they're not always good.

But I felt confident in this one.

Glad I was right.

And...incidentally...I guess I had the winner all along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone read this and suddenly re-open Barron's mag article thread?

Funny...

-ZEN

[Ruddiger]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Result: I said "3-bet," reached for my chips, and was suddenly covered in yellow. Villain insta-mucked his hand to my 3-bet and said, "Ach! I figured I'd catch you bluffing this time."

And yes, he said, "Ach!"

As for Rubenstein: "You knew looking at the flop that he'd check the flop *and* the turn?"

After I checked behind him on the flop, he gave me a look like that said, "Huh. I guess you have crap." When he checked the turn I had a very strong feeling that he was inviting me to BLUFF (as opposed to betting with goods). Hence, my 3-bet. Reads like this are few and far between. And even then, they're not always good.

But I felt confident in this one.

Glad I was right.

And...incidentally...I guess I had the winner all along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone read this and suddenly re-open Barron's mag article thread?

Funny...

-ZEN

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No.
This is nothing like that. Thank you for playing.

[ZenMusician]

<font color="red">Reads like this are few and far between. </font>

Nope, nothing like it at all.

You, sir, are a useless poster.

-ZEN

[Ruddiger]

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<font color="red">Reads like this are few and far between. </font>

Nope, nothing like it at all.

You, sir, are a useless poster.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad I could help.