5/10 nl, Top set JJJ [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

captZEEbo1

10-02-2005, 08:35 PM

6 handed 5/10 nl
my hand: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

folded to me on button (1475), SB folds BB calls (covers)

flop: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif (pot: 75)
SB checks, Hero bets 75, SB makes it 200 all day, I make it 500 all day, SB calls

turn: A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (pot 1075)
SB checks, Hero goes allin for 930

Anyone? Only street I'm confident of is preflop.

xorbie

10-02-2005, 08:40 PM

Uh.. what's the problem? Can't check behind on that turn, so what if he has KQ.

BobboFitos

10-02-2005, 08:42 PM

lookin' good in the neighborhood

captZEEbo1

10-02-2005, 08:45 PM

well what range of hands calls turn push that I'm ahead of? Nobody thinks a turn check is okay here?

Yeti

10-02-2005, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nobody thinks a turn check is okay here?

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?

I would either just call his raise on the flop, or more likely, stick it all in.

Rocaix

10-02-2005, 08:55 PM

In a vaccum this looks fine to me, he probably has a smaller set, JT, or maybe an Overpair on the flop. A mediocre draw probably folds to a flop 3-bet, and big draws probably just sticks it all-in.

An alternative higher variance line (if you don't 3-bet the flop very often)would be to just call the check-raise and push over the top on the turn. This squeezes a little extra value out of him if he decided to get frisky with a draw on the flop and will follow through on the turn when he misses. But of course any /images/graemlins/club.gif,7,9,orA will make you a bit uncomfortable on the turn.

fsuplayer

10-03-2005, 01:00 PM

your 3bet size on the flop screams a monster, moving in is muchhhhhhhhhhhhh better here.

and hey, it solves the whole sticky turn problem as well.

jetsg4

10-03-2005, 02:24 PM

i like it.... the NL section of 2+2 is the land of "Overbet Pot Lovers"... i hate almost all over pot bets, i doubt he's calling your raise with kq unless it's the k /images/graemlins/club.gifq /images/graemlins/club.gif

if he had that draw though, i believe you would have heard back from him on flop, or you would have if it were me.. most of time.

ObnxNole

10-03-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i like it.... the NL section of 2+2 is the land of "Overbet Pot Lovers"... i hate almost all over pot bets, i doubt he's calling your raise with kq unless it's the k /images/graemlins/club.gifq /images/graemlins/club.gif

if he had that draw though, i believe you would have heard back from him on flop, or you would have if it were me.. most of time.

[/ QUOTE ]
That line of thinking is retarded. An overbet of the pot does not always mean someone has the mortal nuts. The point of it is to set up your opponent to try and make a big call on you when he has a marginal hand.

AEKDBet

10-03-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
6 handed 5/10 nl
my hand: J/images/graemlins/heart.gif J/images/graemlins/spade.gif

folded to me on button (1475), SB folds BB calls (covers)

flop: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif (pot: 75)
SB checks, Hero bets 75, SB makes it 200 all day, I make it 500 all day, SB calls

[/ QUOTE ]

SB makes it 200, you PUSH.

10-03-2005, 05:12 PM

I'm pushing on the flop.

I heart no variance $230 profit. But ok, you make it $500 and he calls. He calls with what here? Pot is now $1.1k or some such.

Flush/straight draw, overpair or (pray to God he has this) AJ (in order of likelihood). Turn is A. AA now kills you but you're calling any bets anyway with a set of Jacks anyway. Push is correct; there are no odds for flush/straight draw to call and plenty for AJ. Overpair other than AA isn't paying you off anyway on the river.

I like it.

captZEEbo1

10-03-2005, 09:01 PM

You guys really advocate pushing top set when I have about 1500 total once he's only invested about 230? You guys are on drugs or I am.

edge

10-03-2005, 09:32 PM

I probably make the reraise 600 or I call and push over the top on the turn. Pretty much the same as how you played it. I realize that reraising to 600 or pushing is effectively the same thing because of pot commitment, but I still do it because it looks easier to call.

BobboFitos

10-03-2005, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You guys really advocate pushing top set when I have about 1500 total once he's only invested about 230? You guys are on drugs or I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think people here love blowing their hands and not getting value. i think this was played optimally, and if you lost to KQ, c'est la vie, or if he folded a decent made hand or draw, such is poker.

AEKDBet

10-03-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

flop: T/images/graemlins/heart.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/club.gif (pot: 75)
SB checks, Hero bets 75, SB makes it 200 all day

[/ QUOTE ]

All the more reason to push here.

Now add in some other hands you will push with here that are aren't too far away from coinflip equity with the hange of hands you will be called with.

Now add in some other hands you will push with here that are aren't too far away from coinflip equity with the hange of hands you will be called with.

Alexthegreat

10-03-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Now add in some other hands you will push with here that are aren't too far away from coinflip equity with the range of hands you will be called with.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds nice, but can you show the ranges please??

AEKDBet

10-03-2005, 11:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Now add in some other hands you will push with here that are aren't too far away from coinflip equity with the range of hands you will be called with.

[/ QUOTE ]

That sounds nice, but can you show the ranges please??

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously?

Damn okay this paper is never gonna get done.

First you tell me if you were villain what hands you would call that push with.

also i suck at typing
"Now add in some other hands you will push with here that aren't....

-Skeme-

10-04-2005, 12:59 AM

I think a push on the flop sucks.

AEKDBet

10-04-2005, 01:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think a push on the flop sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Well that's just, like, your opinion man."

What would u call a push with skeme

Sponger15SB

10-04-2005, 01:37 AM

I fold preflop and then go play $25-50 or $50-100

AEKDBet

10-04-2005, 01:40 AM

CaptZEEbo & others,

Given these 2 flops does your play change? How/why?

1) J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

2) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

captZEEbo1

10-04-2005, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
CaptZEEbo & others,

Given these 2 flops does your play change? How/why?

1) J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

2) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

hand 1) more apt to push since it looks a LOT more like some sort of gay semibluff and a lot more likely to get called by some guy thinking he has about 50% equity.

hand 2)
call the $200 reraise and pray board pairs or opponent slows down.

edit: rethinking hand 2) I'm not sure what I'd do.

AEKDBet

10-04-2005, 01:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]

edit: rethinking hand 2) I'm not sure what I'd do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Haha yeah, I was just thinking about push v. call. I was on the push side and was rethinking...

edit - do you think 2 pair will call your push?

Okay I push here. Final decision.

edge

10-04-2005, 02:03 AM

Lucky

10-04-2005, 03:55 AM

nicely played

Alexthegreat

10-04-2005, 03:56 AM

Holy

8TJ versus 9TJ

Obviously you are scared of a made hand that beats a set with both those hands, more so with 9TJ....

You shouldn't be scared of any sweet draw with both those hands

Either way, it's really not to similar to the OP's hand, in which there was a few draws, and no made hands better than OP......

So my point about the hands you would push with that are coinflip hands (basically include just about.....a few hands) stands.....

Pushing the flop is really bad.

BobboFitos

10-04-2005, 04:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CaptZEEbo & others,

Given these 2 flops does your play change? How/why?

1) J/images/graemlins/club.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif

2) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/club.gif 9/images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I jam all three flops and I certainly don't mind getting all-in on any of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, such a gambler! doesnt mind getting all in with top set and 100bb stacks!!!

LuvDemNutz

10-04-2005, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
well what range of hands calls turn push that I'm ahead of? Nobody thinks a turn check is okay here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, this is results oriented thinging IMO.

If you check behnind on the turn are you folding to a push on any card?

Doubt it.

Jason Strasser

10-04-2005, 04:59 AM

What range of hands do u threebet like that?

Ulysses

10-04-2005, 05:47 AM

You should tell SB to not cover his cards so you know when he folds pre-flop.

captZEEbo1

10-04-2005, 08:43 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you check behnind on the turn are you folding to a push on any card?

[/ QUOTE ]

not a jack!!!111

but I think it might be more profitable to call a river push than to push turn myself...another issue is if the flush card comes on river, you could easily be faced with a blocking bet instead of an allin. However, I'm not sure if this is still results-oriented thinking or not

Yeti

10-04-2005, 09:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do u threebet like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

captZEEbo1

10-04-2005, 09:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What range of hands do u threebet like that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not much, but my opponent doesn't know that. For all he knows, I have AJ and am throwing out another feeler or have 87 and am trying to take down the pot with looks of strength

edge

10-04-2005, 09:12 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Pushing the flop is really bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I get all-in on either of those two flops, I'm ahead a lot more often than I'm behind. Any two pair, combo draw, set, and maybe overpair will gamble with me. I'm behind only a flopped straight, and I have good outs.

-Skeme-

10-04-2005, 09:42 AM

I don't think people are saying, "pushing the flop is bad" because they think you're behind, it's because it'll most likely kill your action. It's a pretty big overbet, is it not?

edge

10-04-2005, 12:01 PM

Oh, I don't actually push after the checkraise, but if he openpushed or something I would call. Just saying that I would like to get all-in on a flop like that, disregarding the actual action. Like I said before, I make it about 600 and get the rest in on the turn or I call and push over the top on the turn, depending on the player and what I had for breakfast.

AEKDBet

10-04-2005, 02:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, I don't actually push after the checkraise, but if he openpushed or something I would call. Just saying that I would like to get all-in on a flop like that, disregarding the actual action. Like I said before, I make it about 600 and get the rest in on the turn or I call and push over the top on the turn, depending on the player and what I had for breakfast.

[/ QUOTE ]

Image and history are pretty importatn here.
I had a very similar situation come up where a push & huge overbet worked because opponent thought I was bullying / button raising continuation betting way to much and he had landed bottom 2 pr.

AEKDBet

10-04-2005, 06:39 PM

MP ($107.50)
CO ($1468.50)
Hero ($1476.08)
SB ($1031.75)
BB ($1207.59)
UTG ($1177.81)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls $10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $40, 2 folds, UTG calls $30.

Flop: ($95) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $92, UTG raises to $184, Hero calls $1344.08 (All-In), UTG calls $953.81 (All-In).

Turn: ($2668.89) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($2668.89) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $2668.89

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ts 9s (two pair, tens and nines).
Hero has Jd Js (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $2668.89. 

Check out that turn card. THAT would have killed my action.

Chris Daddy Cool

10-04-2005, 06:55 PM

the flop 3-bet is weird because hardly anybody ever does that. what range of hands are you doing it with?

because against good players i'll usually be bluffing and agaisnt bad players i'll usually ahve the nuts when i pull this.

this is why people are telling you to stick it in on the flop (though given the deep stacks you may want to wait as you did). as you played it htough you just have to stick it in on the turn.

captZEEbo1

10-04-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP ($107.50)
CO ($1468.50)
Hero ($1476.08)
SB ($1031.75)
BB ($1207.59)
UTG ($1177.81)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls $10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $40, 2 folds, UTG calls $30.

Flop: ($95) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $92, UTG raises to $184, Hero calls $1344.08 (All-In), UTG calls $953.81 (All-In).

Turn: ($2668.89) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($2668.89) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $2668.89

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ts 9s (two pair, tens and nines).
Hero has Jd Js (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins $2668.89. 

Check out that turn card. THAT would have killed my action.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a difference...I had about 35 more BB's than your opponent, and also that flop it's a lot more likely someone will call with pair + OESD or flush draw+gut/oesd, whereas my flop, it's very likely he JUST has the draw and not top pair or two pair or something (since 3 of the 4 top pair cards are out).