Mike Tice/ Martz

[Pudge714]

Are they having some sort of secret competition as to who can be the worst coach in the NFL. I actually think they are trying to one up each other. Is it just me or is it that hard to find 32 people who can use basic logic and be competenent NFL coaches, I am not even saying they need to be good just competent.

[MrTrik]

Tice needs to go. Sooner rather than later.

[sam h]

Martz is not actually that bad. Tice's competition for the NFC coaching cellar is in Green Bay.

[brettbrettr]

I don't know if Martz is as bad as Tice and Sherman, prob not, but I don't think he's a good coach and I haven't thought so since he stopped giving Marshall Faulk the ball a couple of years ago when the stats showed that if you gave him the ball, you won. Kind of like Schottenheimer in SD, LT got very few touches in the first two weeks.

Martz seems more concerned with winning his way than winning. He always struck me as an egomaniac and I don't think that's necessarily a good thing for an NFL coach.

[DangerGoodson]

but the pencil in the ear is POZ EV

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Martz is not actually that bad. Tice's competition for the NFC coaching cellar is in Green Bay.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously you missed the fumbled reverse on 3rd and three

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
Martz is not actually that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

57.5. Careful.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Martz is not actually that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

57.5. Careful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignoring people who disagree with you is petty. Ignoring those who cut-paste for the first post, sure. But I guess someone, somewhere, could make the srgument that Martz isn't so bad. Especially given that this he's being explicitly compared to Tice.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
57.5. Careful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Martz is in the bottom third of NFL coaches for sure, but he is not Tice or Sherman level.

[Pudge714]

Who is worse than Martz? Tice, Sherman, Maybe Dom Capers, Maybe Haslett, Maybe Norv Turner, who else? I think Martz is at a Tice, Sherman level on incompetency. Look at some of Martz' challenges it's ridiculous.

[JayLear]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
57.5. Careful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Martz is in the bottom third of NFL coaches for sure, but he is not Tice or Sherman level.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to think of an NFL coach that has done less with more than Mike Martz. Tice has proven himself to be a meathead, but he works cheap, which is why he keeps his job every year. I find it ironic that Sherman canned Ed Donatell a couple years ago and made him a scapegoat. Now Donatell is running an excellent defense in Atlanta, and Green Bay would likely struggle to stop a good high school offense. All three are terrible.

[brettbrettr]

Turner is better than all of those guys.

[JayLear]

[ QUOTE ]
Turner is better than all of those guys.

[/ QUOTE ]
Based on what?

[brettbrettr]

The fact that I don't think he's as bad a coach as the other guys.

I actually don't think Capers is all that bad either, they're severly limited by whoever is signing offensive linemen.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't thought so since he stopped giving Marshall Faulk the ball a couple of years ago when the stats showed that if you gave him the ball, you won.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things:

1) The stats show that Marshall Faulk's touches were higher in their wins than their losses. Duh. That'll be true of every team in the league.
2) Marshall stopped being amazing in 2002.

[JayLear]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that I don't think he's as bad a coach as the other guys.

I actually don't think Capers is all that bad either, they're severly limited by whoever is signing offensive linemen.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with your assessment of Capers. He doesn't deserve to be grouped in here. Jury is still out on Turner in Oakland. He was a failure in DC though, where the perception was that he had the tools to succeed.

[brettbrettr]

I'll see if I can find the stats--and of course you're right--but I seem to remember Marshall's touches being *much* higher in their wins. This is not about running the clock.

[Voltron87]

Sub-Saharan Desert Nomads Pause To Criticize Mike Martz’s Play-Calling (http://www.thebrushback.com/Archives/subsaharan_full.htm)

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Martz is not actually that bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

57.5. Careful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignoring people who disagree with you is petty. Ignoring those who cut-paste for the first post, sure. But I guess someone, somewhere, could make the srgument that Martz isn't so bad. Especially given that this he's being explicitly compared to Tice.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I wanted clarification. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TheRover]

Has anyone read the essay "in defense of Mike Martz" in Pro Football Prospectus? I can't find it published anywhere online or I'd link it. It's pretty interesting.

[sam h]

Martz is a bad coach. But I think people overrate the talent level he has had the last few years. Mark Bulger is a below-average NFL quarterback. Faulk has not been good for several years now. Their O-line has not been good for a couple years either. They have never had a good defense. Martz makes some inexcusable strategic decisions in games, but I think he has actually gotten more out of the offensive talent that he has had than many other coaches would have, and that is why he is not in the Sherman/Tice category. Both of those guys are just as bad as game coaches but have gotten less overall production from their talent. Look at the Vikings this year. Sherman should have gone to the Super Bowl at least once in the last few years. The game they lost to the Eagles in the playoffs a few years ago was one of the worst coached games I've ever seen.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Mark Bulger is a below-average NFL quarterback.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think? Guy looks pretty damned good to me.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The fact that I don't think he's as bad a coach as the other guys.

I actually don't think Capers is all that bad either, they're severly limited by whoever is signing offensive linemen.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with your assessment of Capers. He doesn't deserve to be grouped in here. Jury is still out on Turner in Oakland. He was a failure in DC though, where the perception was that he had the tools to succeed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was playing devil's advocate to a degree. I was including every coach who could possibly considered worse than the three Mikes. I don't believe Capers or Turner should be in that group, but I am sure there are others who do. In my opinion it goes, Tice, Martz, Sherman.

[Clarkmeister]

Bulger is a top 10 NFL QB. Their biggest problem has been the following:

1. At or near league worst kick coverage.

2. Terrible O-Line play.

3. Defense that doesn't create TO's.

4. Martz is a putz, from always blowing both challenges and TO's way too soon, to his abysmal play calling, to the team's seemingly inexplicable lack of preparation at times.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
You think? Guy looks pretty damned good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Martz' offense and their wideouts make him look better than he is, as was the case for a while with Warner too.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
Martz is not actually that bad. Tice's competition for the NFC coaching cellar is in Green Bay.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you serious?

martz is by far the worst coach in the history of the nfl.

simply look at marshall faulk to see how bad martz screwed up.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
martz is by far the worst coach in the history of the nfl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kotite. And it isn't even close.

[Victor]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think? Guy looks pretty damned good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Martz' offense and their wideouts make him look better than he is, as was the case for a while with Warner too.

[/ QUOTE ]

i am not sure where you are coming from.

i will just point out a few stats that i have seen. rams are undefeated when faulk runs for 100+.

faulk has the best percentage of touches/tds when inside the 10yd line. i have to point out that this is an awesome stat.

yet, when playing for martz faulk's touches per game consistenly went down.

here is some conjectu5re which i am not sure stats can affirm. with faulk, the rams could counter the blitz by throwing screen passes and running quick draws.\. once teams realize that the rams were not utiliizing their o in such capacity they blitzed the [censored] out of them. that is why warner is now broken and bulger is not far behind.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think? Guy looks pretty damned good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Martz' offense and their wideouts make him look better than he is, as was the case for a while with Warner too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and I bet you're the type to think that Brady is a "system" quarterback too.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
martz is by far the worst coach in the history of the nfl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kotite. And it isn't even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gregg Williams comes to mind. Replace Doug Flutie with Rob Johnson? Good idea! Or not.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You think? Guy looks pretty damned good to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Martz' offense and their wideouts make him look better than he is, as was the case for a while with Warner too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, and I bet you're the type to think that Brady is a "system" quarterback too.

[/ QUOTE ]

See how helpful clarification can be? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[brettbrettr]

Clearly not a good move but I think the front office had much to do with it. Plus, he can still redeem himself. His D right now is playing great, and I bet he'll take over there after this year.

Kotite was really, really bad. When the Jets hired him he had a losing record in Philly. I mean, it def easy to find a replace this guy with that blunder for a ton of NFL people, and so in that vein, Kotite drafted Kyle Brady over Warren Sapp. That, I hated.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
See how helpful utter clarification can be?

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP.

[Jack of Arcades]

Norv Turner comes to mind as well.

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly not a good move but I think the front office had much to do with it. Plus, he can still redeem himself. His D right now is playing great, and I bet he'll take over there after this year.

Kotite was really, really bad. When the Jets hired him he had a losing record in Philly. I mean, it def easy to find a replace this guy with that blunder for a ton of NFL people, and so in that vein, Kotite drafted Kyle Brady over Warren Sapp. That, I hated.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a coach not a GM. If you look at the Vikings with Tice they have made great personel decisions, but he is a horrible coach.

As for Gregg Williams being a great defensive co-ordinator, just because someone is a great co-ordinator doesn't mean they will be a great coach. There are certain guys Gregg Williams, Wannestedt come to mind who are/were great co-ordinators but just aren't good head coaches.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, he can still redeem himself.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's all I said.

[TheRover]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
martz is by far the worst coach in the history of the nfl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kotite. And it isn't even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gregg Williams comes to mind. Replace Doug Flutie with Rob Johnson? Good idea! Or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Wade Phillips.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]

See how unhelpful putting words in somebody's mouth can be?

[ QUOTE ]
FYP.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I never said anything about Brady, who is cleary 1 or 2. Bulger is not a top ten quarterback. At best he is around league average, in the same category as a bunch of other guys like Drew Brees and Jake Delhomme. People overrate the talent on the Rams offense in the last few years because they can't get the Greatest Show on Turf images from 1999-2001 out of their heads.

[sam h]

Martz made huge blunders underutilizing Faulk in key situations, especially the SB against the Pats, in his heyday, but his touches overall did not go down until 2003, which coincided with his decline as a player. I said Martz was a bad coach.

[brettbrettr]

I was basing my assessment on your opinion of the Warner years.

[utmt40]

YOU'RE FIRED!

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]

I was basing my assessment on your opinion of the Warner years.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think that the talent around him and the system made Warner look better than he really was during those years?

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I was basing my assessment on your opinion of the Warner years.


[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think that the talent around him and the system made Warner look better than he really was during those years?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think precisely zero QB's do what he did with that team. He had 2 of the best years a QB has ever had. And other QBs have had great offensive talent, too.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
He had 2 of the best years a QB has ever had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

There is no way to tell for sure how another QB would have done with that talent and that system. But Warner's career since then seems like evidence for the argument that he was not as good a QB as he appeared in the glory days. Has there ever been another QB who put up those kind of seasons and then fell so quickly in everybody's esteem?

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
martz is by far the worst coach in the history of the nfl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kotite. And it isn't even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gregg Williams comes to mind. Replace Doug Flutie with Rob Johnson? Good idea! Or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Wade Phillips.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah crap, you're right, I'm confusing my shitty buffalo coaches.

[brettbrettr]

The thing with Warner is that he wasn't exactly a spring chicken when he took over in StL. The other thing that should be considered is an injured throwing hand.

Sure, he fell quickly. But where he fell from is what's important.

[Aytumious]

Marty Morningweg was probably the worst coach I've ever seen.

Also, Mike Sherman has one of the top winning % of all active coaches in the NFL. That being said, I think he's a bad coach and was a wretched GM.

[TheRover]

I'm somewhat disappointed that no one has mentioned Marty "choke" Schottenheimer yet. Has the creativity of Doonesbury. Enjoy blowing another playoff game this year Chargers fans. I think Herm Edwards is his son from a different mother or something.

I would like to nominate Mike Holmgren for this award. While he may not be Kotite, Tice, or Martz ... settling for a 47-yard FG with 40 seconds left? WTF? Could you try to gain a few yards maybe?

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
Marty Morningweg was probably the worst coach I've ever seen.

Also, Mike Sherman has one of the top winning % of all active coaches in the NFL. That being said, I think he's a bad coach and was a wretched GM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kicking the ball in overtime what a move

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to nominate Mike Holmgren for this award. While he may not be Kotite, Tice, or Martz ... settling for a 47-yard FG with 40 seconds left? WTF? Could you try to gain a few yards maybe?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you 100% as I was watching that game I thought to myself why doesn't he at least center the ball, that's a pretty standard play, but that idiocy cost the Seahawks the game.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Herm Edwards is his son from a different mother or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Herm is IMO one of the top coaches in the league. You are nuts. He's had nowhere near the talent or opportunities that Marty has had.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Herm is IMO one of the top coaches in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to agree. Now I'm not so sure. But he certainly hasn't had the same players Martz has.

[TheRover]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Herm Edwards is his son from a different mother or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Herm is IMO one of the top coaches in the league. You are nuts. He's had nowhere near the talent or opportunities that Marty has had.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the second part, but I cannot stand his ultra-conservative play calling (hence the Marty comparison). His OC took all the blame for this last year, but firing him didn't seem to change anything. Maybe Vinnie will.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Herm Edwards is his son from a different mother or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Herm is IMO one of the top coaches in the league. You are nuts. He's had nowhere near the talent or opportunities that Marty has had.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the second part, but I cannot stand his ultra-conservative play calling (hence the Marty comparison). His OC took all the blame for this last year, but firing him didn't seem to change anything. Maybe Vinnie will.

[/ QUOTE ]

That play calling almost beat a vastly superior Steeler team on the road in the second round of the playoffs last year, and would have but for a horrific game from the kicker. I fail to see the problem.

[TheRover]

[ QUOTE ]
That play calling almost beat a vastly superior Steeler team on the road in the second round of the playoffs last year, and would have but for a horrific game from the kicker. I fail to see the problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, how about a complete inability to handle basic clock management? Roethlisberger had a lot to do with that game being so close, iirc. That SD vs. NYJ game was nice example of chickenshit coaching. Both teams just running right up the middle for no gain to set up 40+yd. field goals. I hate this. Grow some balls and throw it once or twice. Look at all the pointless running plays last week despite that shitty O-line and Curtis Martin's corpse going nowhere.


Ask a Jets fan what they thought of the play calling last year. I recall massive bitching about it with most of the blame going to Paul Hackett. Maybe that was the wrong target.

[CCass]

Never hire a coach named Mike!

Tice, Martz, Sherman, and Holmgren have all been mentioned in this thread. Clearly, all coaches named Mike are bad.

And for the record, Martz is the worst of the bunch.

[HajiShirazu]

Mike Martz is underrated. The guy is 53-30 as a head coach, and they won the superbowl before he became the head coach basically because of his offensive scheme. The guy makes bad decisions, doesn't play his players on special teams, his teams turn the ball over and commit stupid penalities, yeah I agree. And about offensive talent, they indeed were loaded on O, but come on, he took the QB of an arena league team that doesn't even exist any longer and the guy goes and has one of the greatest seasons ever in his first year. Then he goes around and does the same thing with no-name Marc Bulger. And it has to be at least considered that his legendary WR's were successful at least in part to the fact that he coached their offense for most of their careers.
It's totally obvious, yet people always seem to forget that 20 out of 32 teams don't make the playoffs, and the average record is 8-8. Compared to that, I'll take the guy who is 23 over .500 and has made the playoffs 4 times in five years any day. You can say whatever you want about "any coach could do that with those players" or "they underachieved and any coach would have went to the superbowl with that," yet IMO in a salary-cap game where differences in talent are not nearly as wide as people think, coaching makes far more of a difference than it is ever given credit for.
Mike Tice on the other hand is simply awful.

[Jack of Arcades]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think Herm Edwards is his son from a different mother or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Herm is IMO one of the top coaches in the league. You are nuts. He's had nowhere near the talent or opportunities that Marty has had.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with the second part, but I cannot stand his ultra-conservative play calling (hence the Marty comparison). His OC took all the blame for this last year, but firing him didn't seem to change anything. Maybe Vinnie will.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe that's because they hired an even more conservative OC. Anyone else remember Eddie George up the gut for 3 yards 320 times a season? Yeah, that's who they got.

[Jack of Arcades]

Really? Missing two 40-plus-yard field goals in Heinz field is a horrible game for a kicker? Even Viniateri misses those.

[JayLear]

Actually, that's probably a good game for Brien lately. He's 1 for 4 so far this year. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ClaytonN]

[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, all coaches named Mike are bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/story_image/week5_ditkacigar.jpg

[JayLear]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Clearly, all coaches named Mike are bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.profootballhof.com/assets/story_image/week5_ditkacigar.jpg

[/ QUOTE ]

Obvious exception, my friends...

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe that's because they hired an even more conservative OC. Anyone else remember Eddie George up the gut for 3 yards 320 times a season? Yeah, that's who they got.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also seem to remember Billy Volek throwing for a butload of yards almost every week last year. No Eddie George. No Chris Brown. Billy Volek.

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
Really? Missing two 40-plus-yard field goals in Heinz field is a horrible game for a kicker? Even Viniateri misses those.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he doesn't. Missing one is fine. Heinz is a horrible place to kick. The second miss was horrible.

[brettbrettr]

"We believe that Martz should shut it down until he gets a clean bill of health. His life, after all, is far more important that a job he'll likely lose after this season, anyway."

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Martz is underrated. The guy is 53-30 as a head coach, and they won the superbowl before he became the head coach basically because of his offensive scheme. The guy makes bad decisions, doesn't play his players on special teams, his teams turn the ball over and commit stupid penalities, yeah I agree. And about offensive talent, they indeed were loaded on O, but come on, he took the QB of an arena league team that doesn't even exist any longer and the guy goes and has one of the greatest seasons ever in his first year. Then he goes around and does the same thing with no-name Marc Bulger. And it has to be at least considered that his legendary WR's were successful at least in part to the fact that he coached their offense for most of their careers.
It's totally obvious, yet people always seem to forget that 20 out of 32 teams don't make the playoffs, and the average record is 8-8. Compared to that, I'll take the guy who is 23 over .500 and has made the playoffs 4 times in five years any day. You can say whatever you want about "any coach could do that with those players" or "they underachieved and any coach would have went to the superbowl with that," yet IMO in a salary-cap game where differences in talent are not nearly as wide as people think, coaching makes far more of a difference than it is ever given credit for.
Mike Tice on the other hand is simply awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good offensive coordinator != good head coach

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]

The guy makes bad decisions, doesn't play his players on special teams, his teams turn the ball over and commit stupid penalities, yeah I agree.

[/ QUOTE ]



How can a coach whose teams do that be underrated?